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He has so many possible lines out there, we can dramatically change the course to accomidate multiple lines without ruts.

Besides, the only people causing ruts are those plowing/understeering into turns.... are you saying you are doing that? Also, you can drive dynamic lines, so you dont drive the 'rutted' line.

Ooh ooh.. maybe we should start a new thread with a lot of argumentative banter about this very subject!


- dow

So now you're telling me that a clean course isn't faster than a rutted one? Carl prefers the rutted course for some reason and has only let the SU2 cars run first ONCE since we started this.

Can I get a vote on who thinks the SU2 cars should always go first (morning heat only)?

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

Here's the thing about SU2 cars going first - the first guy on the course gets to drive on the fastest course. Then it just gets slower and slower from there. Look at the results from the one time SU2 went first and you'll see that some bastard in a Neon beat all of the AWD cars for single fastest run time.

That was the course with the enormous pit in the loop right in front of the bus, though - that thing was so big by the time I scraped the course for SO4 to run that I just drove the tractor over there, went "Hmmm... " shook my head and drove off to find something I COULD fix.

But hey, if everybody wants SU2 to run first, I do have a Forester I can run - so it's fine with me.

When y'all start running the autoX program as a democracy, then we can talk about it some more.

_________________
Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

Ok, I follow all your logic except for this. At ANY Rallyx, when is the last person off in a group not at a disadvatage to the first car off? There will ALWAYS be an advantage of being first in line.

Are AWD egos so fragile that being beat by an ole' Dodge destroys someones world? Or is going first what makes AWD's so fast?

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

At the BMW farms when there is still grass on the course. Look at my times for reference.

Game. Set. Match.

- dow

Point taken! We'll run the AX program (you don't get to complain) and you run the RX program and we don't get to complain either.

Works for me!

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

Bullshit.

If it wasnt a problem then why couldnt the big, bad AWD cars beat Carl in his Neon the only time SU2 went first? Its a problem when SU2 goes first for the AWD crowd but not first and last in a group. Even at the BMW farm, a virgin course would HAVE to be better than the last of the run group.

Next....

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Sorry Mr Conspiracy Theorist,

I don't think Carl has conciously attempted to make it so the SU2 cars have to run a more rutted course. But that's just MY theory.

I don't think anyone should get to "always go first".

Bret.

I think that at the BMW Farms when there is grass on course, the 'at the time' season point leader should go first

Grass on course == slower (first few runs). There is a difference between first car at the end of the 1st run group, and last car at the end of the second.

I guess there should just be LESS SU2 cars that plow up/understeer the field then . No one FORCES anyone to drive through the ruts. Heck, I drove almost LAST (run group 4, end) in the last event, and all the FToD came from the LAST runs. What does that mean? :confused:

RallyX == dynamic course. I am always up for changing the run order, but remember, that is 'changing the rules'. Nobody likes that.

Heck, we SHOULD tear up the course tomorrow so everyone starts on a hosed course on Sunday then. That way EVERYONE is equally hosed.

Real Question :: Do we still run a full event even if it rains (like REALLY rains)?


- dow

2wd -> faster on virgin course

awd -> doesn't matter as much most of the time - I would say that an awd guy starting first on the course at my house with the big pit in front of the bus would've had a 2 second advantage on the first run due to only that one pit developing. (don't worry, that loop was an experiment and it won't happen again)

But the awd advantage can usually allow you to power through the rough or loose stuff just as well as you did on the first run, and you get to choose lines that actually go around the rough stuff and through the loose stuff, because you have enough tires pushing the dirt that you don't bog down.

My experience with big ruts and dips is that it's better to either enter wide and cut across them diagonally, or go around them completely (if you have those two options) than to go right through them. The big yump next to the bus at the last rallyx - there was no way in Hell I was taking my STi or 2.5RS through that the way that Vincent and most of the rest of you were. And I guarandamntee you that if I did lose time on that corner that it wasn't more than a tenth or two. Now if I was just out there to play, have fun and beat the Hell out of a car to see if I could break it, I'd probably be driving like you guys.

It's funny - AWD usually runs first morning and afternoon up at Oakland Acres, so we get to sweep the course off for 2wd (which gives them a HUGE advantage). The big argument up there is about when the AWD guys will get to run LAST. Guess who the top times are usually run by?

(answer: 2wd guys, including Rob B )

He has been asked several times to let SU2 go first...denied. It's a concious decision, trust me.

I agree that we should flip-flop who go first at each event. That would literally *level* the playing field a little more.

But like Carl said, this ain't no democracy and he and Kevin are the head honchos. They get to make the decisions.

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

Let go man, let it go....

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Thanks for making my point.



If we went wide we would have been in the REALLY loose stuff (that we can't power through like you stated above) and losts tons of time. Since we are slower there we need to cut the distance.

Believe it or not we are not making an effort to attempt to destroy the General. No General = No Fun for us. We drive him hard, but I'd drive any car just as hard that I'd take out there. I always warn people that offer me to drive the car that I won't take it easy. I can't drive 9/10ths because you can't know where that is until you go 11/10ths now can you?

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)