Cryo Treatment Tech

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:29 pm

Anyone have any experience (or know someone who has) with cryo treatment? I’m probably going to have to get another set of rotors soon, and I’m considering getting them cryo-treated for longevity. At $300/pair I need them to last longer!

I’ve found two west coast places that do rotors for $25 each so it’s worth considering. There is a place in Atlanta as well, but I need to call and find out there pricing.

Graham Jagger · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:53 am **Posts:** 1718

I had looked into getting cryo treated rotors before. The Frozen Rotors brand. I passed on it because it wasn't cost effective for track use. But that is based on paying $26/rotor for the NAPA blanks .vs. $111/rotor for the Frozen ones. That's almost a 4-1 cost. Not worth it for me.

One of the T1 racers told me an absolute no difference in time to crack. Not worth it. One of the owners of a driving/racing school that uses Z06 cars has also tried this with no real positive results. They'll try anything to reduce time to swap rotors since it is a big maintenance item for them. Some people have said they got a few more events from doing it.

At $300/pair for your rotors it couldn't hurt to give it a try. The 2 cryo places I looked at charged about $50/rotor + shipping in both directions. That came out to $70/rotor. It will take about a week for them to get them done.

One area that cryo is popular and appears to really work is in industrial machine equipement. Like big drilling, machining, etc. But their parts are not made of "gray iron" so we are talking about a different metal there.

I have seen one argument that says rotors made of alloyed compacted graphite iron then heat treated is better. Just the opposite approach of cryo.

Wes Eargle · **Joined:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:47 am **Posts:** 3683

Graham -- maybe, maybe not. It all depends on how the engineer treats the metal with heat and pressure to get the iron into the desired phase.

Geek warning

clinehall · **Posted:** Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:17 pm

[quote.

Geek warning[/quote]

Now I remember why I studied Finance at Virginia Tech

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:20 pm

FYI...from what I've seen it seems to be a pure marketing ploy. Here is an example of first hand use (also take a look at post #6):

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=678454

David Teague · **Posted:** Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:52 pm

I used some Cyro rotors on the del sol for a season, when I was done they were in the same shape as the ones I bought from Autozone and used for one season. Both Rotors had a few surface cracks and were about the same thickness. Both were used with the same Brake Pads (P+'s). Of course the Del Sol is pretty easy on brakes.

Graham Jagger · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:53 am **Posts:** 1718

So the moral of the story is even if you store your rotors in the freezer they're still going crack. :wink:

I would put my money into brake ducts or better brake ducts. Preferably with spindle adapters to get within a couple of inches of the center of the rotor. I believe about 3" diameter ducting should be about right given the size of your C4 front brakes.

Not using race pads will help. Going from stock Z06 pads to race pads cut my rotor life in half... Race pads are more fun, but at a price.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:42 am

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

FYI...from what I've seen it seems to be a pure marketing ploy. Here is an example of first hand use (also take a look at post #6):

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=678454

Thanks for the info Chuck. I guess I’m at my wits end on what to try next. Here’s the background for those that don’t know it.

Car Specs:

1998 Chevy Cavalier Z-24

2.4L DOHC Engine (Quad 4)
2950 LBS w/ full tank
150HP
155 ft-lb torque
112 MPH top speed at VIR

Stock Brakes:

Front 9.5” x .79” thk rotor, single piston floating caliper
Rear Drums

Current Brakes (from a C4 Corvette)

Front 12.2” x 1.1 thk rotor, dual piston PBR floating caliper, Carbotech XP-8 pads
Rear 12” x .79 thk rotor, single piston PBR floating caliper, NAPA El-cheapo pads

I ran Rockingham 2005 once with the new brakes, but used PFCM-Z pads front and rear. No ducting. The brakes were great, no fade, but the pads didn’t have that initial bite that real track pads do. BTW, I run PFC pads on the street and change to track pads at the track.

For 2006, I ran Carbotech XP-8s up front, and the PFCM-Z pads in the rear. I ran 7 events with this setup and no ducting. The brakes worked flawlessly…until I cracked a rotor at the PCA event.

After the PCA event I bought new front rotors and installed ducting. I ran this setup at Rockingham in November. Again, I had no problem with the brakes. Wheel bearings…well that’s another story!

So in getting the car ready for the 2007 season, I installed fresh fluid and noticed the rotors already have surface cracks (or heat checks as some call them) after only one track event, where it was cold outside and I had ducting in place. BTW, the rear rotors ($39 from NAPA) still look great. No heat checks AT ALL.

So what to do? I know the surface cracks are supposed to be normal, but who know how long it will be before one turns into a real crack? I can’t afford not to have new ones on hand with the price of an event going to waste if I don’t. I’m getting discouraged already since these bastards are $300 a pair!

Any helpful advice would be appreciated. Yes, I know I need another car, but that ain’t in the cards until my wife graduates from nursing school and gets a job.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Lemme get this straight .. you have a 150hp car which weighs less than 3000 lb with fricking 12.1" diameter and 1.1" thick rotors?

You could probably stop the car fine with paper towels stuffed in there for brake pads. IMO XP8s are overkill and ducting is probably overkill in that setup.

I bet the XP8s are killing the rotors - you need a more rotor friendly pad. Me myself I was never a fan of Carbotechs. All the sets I tried ruined my rotors and turned into potato chips.

I think you should get the rotors turned, use a less aggressive pad, and bring an IR gun to the track on to make sure you are getting *enough* heat into the rotors.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:21 am

MikeWhitney wrote:

Lemme get this straight .. you have a 150hp car which weighs less than 3000 lb with fricking 12.1" diameter and 1.1" thick rotors?

Yep. It's a copy of the setup Baer sells for the Cavalier. I just built my own with the same parts.

MikeWhitney wrote:

You could probably stop the car fine with paper towels stuffed in there for brake pads. IMO XP8s are overkill and ducting is probably overkill in that setup.

The stock setup did "OK" until I warped a set of Panther Plus pads down to plates in one weekend at VIR-S. The single piston caliper did them in. That when I decided I needed better brakes.

MikeWhitney wrote:

I bet the XP8s are killing the rotors - you need a more rotor friendly pad. Me myself I was never a fan of Carbotechs. All the sets I tried ruined my rotors and turned into potato chips.

So what pad would you recommend? Just to be clear the rotors have never warped, just heat checks like mad.

MikeWhitney wrote:

I think you should get the rotors turned, use a less aggressive pad, and bring an IR gun to the track on to make sure you are getting *enough* heat into the rotors.

What good would turning a non-warped rotor do? Just to remove the residue from the pads? How much heat is enough? Should I ditch the ducting?

David Teague · **Posted:** Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:40 am

Sounds like there is something else wrong.

The Del Sol is 2300 lbs and 125hp I generally was getting about a 8 to 10 events out of my front rotors (including 3 events at CMP) before I saw any surface cracks on the rotors.

With the large rotors and the ducting I wonder if you are not getting up to temperature. If everything was fine until you cracked that rotor I wonder if you just did not have a bad sport in the rotor that caused the crack.

Mike's suggestion of getting temps on your rotors is good Idea, it would let you know if you are in the operating range of the pad. Turning the rotors would remove and pad deposits on the rotor and let you start fresh.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:46 am

David Teague wrote:

Mike's suggestion of getting temps on your rotors is good Idea, it would let you know if you are in the operating range of the pad. Turning the rotors would remove and pad deposits on the rotor and let you start fresh.

So if you are under the operating temperature of the pad then what is the end result?

I thought heat cracks were due to overheating.

BTW, I'm not arguing here...just trying to learn something.

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:22 pm

Vincent Keene wrote:

David Teague wrote:

Mike's suggestion of getting temps on your rotors is good Idea, it would let you know if you are in the operating range of the pad. Turning the rotors would remove and pad deposits on the rotor and let you start fresh.

So if you are under the operating temperature of the pad then what is the end result?

I thought heat cracks were due to overheating.

BTW, I'm not arguing here...just trying to learn something.

Do you have a picture of the issue? Generally, the type of cracks you seem to be referring to are caused by thermal cycling stresses...might be a good idea not to dump that cooler ice water on them when you pit.

Seriously though, severe thermal cycling generally leads to typical stress cracking with time as you suspect. Are you confident these are thermal cycling cracks? I assume that if something is misaligned, you could be loading the rotor unevenly for example. Are the cracks typical on both front rotors (i.e. pretty much the same, more or less, on both)? Is pad wear relatively even (i.e. not sloped)?

Another possibility is simply poor quality rotors. Centric rotors are very nicely made btw: http://www.zeckhausen.com/images/product_icons/Centric_rotor_description.jpg

Dave Zeckhausen (http://www.zeckhausen.com)is one of the most knowledgeable brake guys I know, and he's a great person too...might be worth dropping him an e-mail with your setup and issue.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:39 pm

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

Do you have a picture of the issue? Generally, the type of cracks you seem to be referring to are caused by thermal cycling stresses...might be a good idea not to dump that cooler ice water on them when you pit.

Seriously though, severe thermal cycling generally leads to typical stress cracking with time as you suspect.

I do not have a picture of them currently, but you can see them live and in person next weekend at VIR. Stop by and we'll chat.

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

Are you confident these are thermal cycling cracks? I assume that if something is misaligned, you could be loading the rotor unevenly for example. Are the cracks typical on both front rotors (i.e. pretty much the same, more or less, on both)? Is pad wear relatively even (i.e. not sloped)?

I've been told that's what they are, but I don't *know* that for sure. Nothing is misaligned though. The wear on pads and rotors is quite even. No pad taper at all. That one good thing about PBR's pad-guided caliper design. The pads pretty much keep themselves aligned with the rotor, within reason of course.

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

Another possibility is simply poor quality rotors.

The first pair were bought from Todd at TCE products in Texas. He built custom hats for me and the rotors were pretty nice too. At $158 each they *should* be high quality.

My current pair were custom made at Coleman Racing in Michigan. They are a bit cheaper at $138 each, but again they should be a high quality.

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:43 pm

Vincent Keene wrote:

I do not have a picture of them currently, but you can see them live and in person next weekend at VIR. Stop by and we'll chat.

I'm not going to be at VIR until the CCA event in March.

I'm running out of ideas here though...other than talking to Dave Z about it. Checking rotor temps at the next event is a good idea though. Don't forget to note the ambient temp in case you want to reference it later.

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