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 Post subject: R-comp tire pressures and how to adjust them
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:09 pm 
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(Ignore the fact that my pitiful performance at Laurinburg was in no way due to the car. I'll work on the nut behind the wheel separately.)

I'm running Hoosier A3S05, and this is the first season I've ever autocrossed on "real" tyres. I have a severe problem with not only finding the right pressure, but the procedure to do so.

I ran the TnT and seemed to have a handle on tire pressures. Balance seemed good, front and rear seemed to be working pretty well. In retrospect I didn't wait long enough between runs to get a baseline on starting cold -- as soon as I hit a real event, they were not working.

My current approach to pressures, which I now obviously have to throw out, was based on street tyres 15-20 years ago. I set the pressures cold at the beginning of the day, and added or subtracted a couple of psi if the chalk told me to. That's adding or subtracting from whatever the tire was at then, ignoring the actual value. That was good enough for mid-pack. (For Formula Vee racing I simply did whatever the guy in the Hoosier truck told me to do.)

I figured that would be close enough as a baseline until I got used to having a car that handled and tyres that stuck. Nope. Doesn't work.

I did notice I had a lot of trouble getting the tyres up to temperature yesterday, but stupidly dismissed it first as a cold weather issue, and second as a driver problem -- I was overdriving, and sliding too much would not work heat into the carcass. But later in the day I was still having the same problem despite it being warmer and backing off to reduce the sliding.

Then, when I was pulling the tyres off the car at the end of the day, checking them before putting away, I suddenly realised the rears had done no work and the fronts not enough. I know what a competition tire surface is supposed to look like if it's sticking properly, and the fronts showed about half the "working" texture I woud have expected, and the rears were simply smooth. Conclusion: they never reached operating temperature, and to me the most likely culprit at this point is the pressure being too high. But I don't know how to fix that without just blindly fumbling, as I've never had to do it before.

I have the feeling I could run the Hoosiers at 5 psi and the sidewalls still wouldn't flex enough to roll, so I'm guessing that chalking the tyres is pointless. Examining the surface gave me the first clue, but it's not subtle enough to use as a guide during the day (or is it?).

So, in simple for dummies terms, what do I do to get the pressures right? How do I set up cold for the first run, what tells me which way to go, and what data do I need to gather to use for future events?

One trouble is that even with the wrong pressures, these "slicks" stick so much better than anything I've autocrossed on before that I can't yet tell that they should be sticking even better. I do have a good feel for the limits of traction and how they behave there, and for the shape and feel of the curve, but in terms of the absolute of "they should stick this much" I have no idea. Later this year, if I keep working hard at it, my driving consistency should improve to use feel as a data point, but it sure as heck wasn't there yesterday. Until my driving stops sucking, what do I do in the meantime?

All advice, links, book pointers, slaps upside the head, whatever, greatly appreciated...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:25 pm 
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You don't mention were you started the pressure at. If it was anything over 34/32 (f/r), you were probably too high. I would check the ffrax list for more info.

Our run format prevents any real playing with pressures. You will have to find a point that you are comfortable with and stick there. I would recommend 32/30. Keep them set there and forget about it. One less thing to be worrying about.

I wanted to drop the rears to 28, but with the clutch not working, there was no real reason to.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:48 pm 
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Everyone (including Hoosier and Sam Strano) says the Hoosiers have to run a much higher pressure than most other tyres. I started at 43/35. Last time I ordered stuff from Sam he asked what I was running, and seemed to think that was about right -- but he may have been talking hot pressures, not cold. I've realised I don't even know if I'm using the same conventions as anyone else when I talk about pressures. That's why I need some very basic knowledge, so I can read about pressures and know I have the basic assumptions right.

(Of course Sam also said I should run the V710's. :) He says they're worth at least a second over the A3S05. That's at Sam's competition level, and presumably at yours too. At my level, the difference is unnoticeable, I'm sure -- I'm inclined to think that since I really like the feel of the Hoosiers I might stick with them, especially if what Hoosier says about their new A3S06 is true. But that's a moot point, I'm running the set I have until they wear out, or the end of the year whichever comes first.)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:21 pm 
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I don't know about everyone else, but I'm not giving any damned advice until Martyn learns how to spell "tire" properly. ;-)


--Donnie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:24 pm 
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IMHO (as well as the tire manufacturers) A popular misconception is that you should lower pressures to increase grip, not so, just the opposite with R compounds (at least until the tread starts rounding). I'd listen to Sammy, he knows his sheet (and tires)! At Laurinburg a "working" SO5 tread surface should look like cold oatmeal. Sliding a tire will put a lot more heat into it than not sliding. The only true way to set correct pressure is with a contact probe thermocouple. Chaulking a sidewall is just a waste of chaulk. How much the sidewall rolls over is more influenced by driving style and grip than pressure.
I'm with Jim on the set it and forget it philosophy, we just check and readjust back to the starting pressure after each run until the pressure stabilizes, the only time we change our base pressures is if it rains. Adjust the car rather than the tires. Make sure you're using a quality racing pressure gauge and use the same one every time. The SO5 likes to be cool, it gives it's highest grip on the first run of the day if it isn't too cold out. if it gets much above 110* the grip starts going away. If you are not using the full tread surface it's likely an alignment issue (also testable with a contact probe temp gauge). the gun style temp gauge is pretty much for finding out the track surface temp or frustrating the cat, not much good for tire temps.
Others will no doubt share their opinions. :wink:

Flame suit on!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:28 pm 
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Donnie Barnes wrote:
I don't know about everyone else, but I'm not giving any damned advice until Martyn learns how to spell "tire" properly. ;-)


--Donnie

Thanks to technology, we are now able to censor those offensive traditional english words! :twisted: :twisted:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:33 pm 
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Jason Mauldin wrote:
Donnie Barnes wrote:
I don't know about everyone else, but I'm not giving any damned advice until Martyn learns how to spell "tire" properly. ;-)


--Donnie

Thanks to technology, we are now able to censor those offensive traditional english words! :twisted: :twisted:


You only got the first one! (in the subject header).

Try %s/tire/tire//g instead of s/tire/tire :wink:

EDIT!!! Ha Ha good one. New posts won't accept t y r e !!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:45 pm 
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I don't know about everyone else, but I'm not going to read any more of this thread until Chuck learns how to spell "chalk" properly.

:P


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:12 am 
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What's wrong with tyres? :P


Fight the power!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:04 am 
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Chuck Frank wrote:
IMHO (as well as the tire manufacturers) A popular misconception is that you should lower pressures to increase grip, not so, just the opposite with R compounds (at least until the tread starts rounding).


Chuck - do you have any sources you could share of that info? That is consistent with what I have experienced for the last few years and I'd like to learn more. With my old E30 and with the new M3, I get faster as I drop pressures. I haven't been "brave" enough to go below 30, but with both the old car on Victoracers and the M3 on V710s, I have dropped to 34/32 and remained there.

I have noticed that the car "feels" sloppy at lower pressures (makes sense/less crisp inputs, slower response) but overall grip appears better and times go down. Then again, I am not and have never been sensitive to changes at all. When driving I go into some right-brain sense and respond mode and never gather much info about what the car is doing.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:10 pm 
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Sure: http://www.hoosiertire.com/rrtire.htm
Note that the info is directed at the SO4's but the only change with the SO5 is the recommended pressures are 5-10# higher.
I am also basing the info on a number of personal conversations with Jeff Spear of Hoosier racing tire division during the 04 and early 05 season when Donna was receiving tire help from Hoosier.
I just got off the phone with Jeff a few minutes ago. The A6 as the new tire is being called will be available for purchase in limited quantities next Mon the 27th. Independent heads up testing has shown them to be quicker than the Kumho 710s. We'll have a set here next week... :twisted:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:27 pm 
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Arthur McDonald wrote:
I don't know about everyone else, but I'm not going to read any more of this thread until Chuck learns how to spell "chalk" properly.

:P


I don't about anyone else, but I'm not going to read (or write) any more of this thread until they add a spell check or ban the spelling teachers!
:roll: :wink: :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:32 pm 
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I guess the Hoosier R3S05 wasn't very good. I mean it took until July for them to introduce them and then gone by April of the next year.

Of course, if you read the article in the latest GRM from the Tire Rack guy, it seems major changes are on the way for DOT tires in 2007. Maybe this is the last gasp for this sort of tire from Hoosier. If there are major changes to the tires, it will be interesting to see what THSCC officers decide to do. If the tires do end up a lot slower (as the article intimates) then someone who squirreled away the last of the 06s and put them in storage could have an advantage.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:45 pm 
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According to Jeff S, the current DOT hoosiers will pass the 07 tests. The 05s were better than the 04s but not as good as the 710s. Hoosier has put out a new model each year since I've been AXing, so the A6 was expected especially after the wholesale shift to 710s in 05. Some sizes of the 05s were available in Apr 05 to meet the SCCA deadline, altho they were slower than usual building the fill in sizes, which also pushed a lot of AXers into giving the 710s a try. DOT AX tires are not a real high priority for any of the manufacturers. Kumho USA ended up airfreighting in a shipment of 710s the week before nationals as they were almost completely out. The obituary for R compounds is highly premature IMHO.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:53 pm 
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Chuck Frank wrote:
According to Jeff S, the current DOT hoosiers will pass the 07 tests. The 05s were better than the 04s but not as good as the 710s. Hoosier has put out a new model each year since I've been AXing, so the A6 was expected especially after the wholesale shift to 710s in 05. Some sizes of the 05s were available in Apr 05 to meet the SCCA deadline, altho they were slower than usual building the fill in sizes, which also pushed a lot of AXers into giving the 710s a try. DOT AX tires are not a real high priority for any of the manufacturers. Kumho USA ended up airfreighting in a shipment of 710s the week before nationals as they were almost completely out. The obituary for R compounds is highly premature IMHO.
I have mixed emotions on that. One the one hand, I love to be able to get super sticky tires. On the other, they are expensive, wear fast and aren't even remotely a sensible idea for street use. The pressure to win keeps people buying them and manufacturers producing them. I know I like the agressive replacement schedule that Hoosier follows as it sure leads to a big stack of discontinued tires. There are still trying to dump 04s on their site.

FWIW, the Rs (what I was referring to) did come about at the end of July last year.

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