FWD Hubs (wheel bearings)

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:35 pm

Ok so I'm pretty damn tired of replacing these on the Z-24. The total now is some where around 12. :shock:

I've bought one from almost every manufacturer there is and all of them are crap for my application.

After thinking this over, I think the type of bearings I have (internally) are not what may be best. When the last one came I apart I was able to look inside and see ball-bearings. I'm under the impression that bearings that see high loads (like cars trailers for example) use tapered roller-type bearings like are seen in the cut away view of page 2 in this picture.

Linky

I'm wondering if I could send my hub to a custom bearing manufacturer and get some custom bearings made? Yeah I know they won't be cheap, but compared to the number I've replaced, I doubt it wouldn't be worth it in the long run.

Since I'm trying to get camber plates to gain more negative camber, better bearings are a real necessity. Hell, I'm killing bearings at -1.5 degrees, imagine what -3 degrees will do!

Opinions? Sources? Insight? Help!

George Bright · **Posted:** Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:04 pm

Since you have replaced them so many times it might be possible that the holes in the strut have become slightly oversized and are allowing the bearings to be unevenly loaded and also not transfering heat away from the bearing. I would also look closely at the shafts that pass through the assembly. Is it possible you are cooking the bearings? Of course the most obvious answer is that GM engineered them just well enough to be a commuter car and not to stand up to track abuse. You could also look and see if the bearings from a a larger FWD car such as a cadilac could be used on your frankenstein mobile.

Graham Jagger · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:53 am **Posts:** 1718

Probably cause you put them big-a$$ Vette brakes on the car and now generate too much heat :lol:

Put your crappy old calipers back on...

On the C4 I have always been told to use the Timken hub assemblies just like the one pictured in that doc. The other 2 or 3 vendors are worse. I was expecting to replace the rear ones every season but managed to get 2 seasons autocrossing. No problems with the front ones.

Are you running brake ducts out front? And if so do you have spindle ducts so you also cool the spindles and not just the calipers?

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:58 am

I believe angular contact ball bearing hubs are now pretty common in all sorts of wheel bearing applications. See http://www.ntnamerica.com/Engineering/P ... arings.pdf

The wheel bearings on front and rear of my Formula Ford are sealed ball bearing type . . . but then the loads are not exactly in the front wheel drive real car range. However the ones on the front of my Mustang are also the ball bearing type AFAIK and they seem to hold up pretty well for the open track folks. They don't last forever by any means but they don't seem to be a problem if replaced on a reasonable schedule.

However, if you are using them much harder in regard to load and heat than the designers were able to convince the bean counters to pay for then . . . . :cry:

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:14 am

Graham Jagger wrote:

Probably cause you put them big-a$$ Vette brakes on the car and now generate too much heat :lol:

Put your crappy old calipers back on...

This problem was happening looooong before the ZR-1 brakes were implemented.

Graham Jagger wrote:

On the C4 I have always been told to use the Timken hub assemblies

I was told that too, but it hasn't panned out. I've used those, and three other brands too. The OEM AC-Delco parts seem to last the longest (6-12 months) but they are the most expensive too at $150 eash.

Graham Jagger wrote:

Are you running brake ducts out front? And if so do you have spindle ducts so you also cool the spindles and not just the calipers?

Haven't added any ductiing yet since the car has only seen one event (Rockingham) with the new brakes. Since Rockingham isn't hard on brakes overheating wasn't an issue...or hasn't been yet.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:17 am

George Bright wrote:

You could also look and see if the bearings from a a larger FWD car such as a cadilac could be used on your frankenstein mobile.

I have thought of this, but unfortunately I have three sets of wheels for my stock 5x100 pattern hubs. Any larger FWD hub that *may* work, has a different (larger) bolt pattern and won't work with my wheels or rotors.

Bowie Gray Jr · **Joined:** Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:31 am **Posts:** 98

Vincent Keene wrote:

I was told that too, but it hasn't panned out. I've used those, and three other brands too. The OEM AC-Delco parts seem to last the longest (6-12 months) but they are the most expensive too at $150 eash.

.....

Haven't added any ductiing yet since the car has only seen one event (Rockingham) with the new brakes. Since Rockingham isn't hard on brakes overheating wasn't an issue...or hasn't been yet.

Let's narrow down some stuff here. How many events do these hubs last?

Once a car becomes a track car, time-based replacement schedules usually go out the window. Knowing a number of events before failure syptoms will help. As an example, I replace the front hubs on my Miata every 8-10 events or 16-20 hours on track whether they show wear or not. This could be a year, this could be 3 months, just depends on the budget and schedule.

Also, are your hubs sealed assemblies, or are you able to replace just the bearings?

Another thing to look at is whether you have wear on your spindles that is causing increased hub wear. This happened to me on the left rear of my car. Basically, the car developed an appetite for LR bearings and when we mic'ed the LR spindle (I guess that is what you call it) it was on the small end of what would normally be acceptable. We have replaced the spindle and the bearing problem went away.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:08 am

Bowie Gray Jr wrote:

Let's narrow down some stuff here. How many events do these hubs last?

Maybe 3 if I'm lucky.

Bowie Gray Jr wrote:

Also, are your hubs sealed assemblies, or are you able to replace just the bearings?

Sealed assemblies---all one unit with studs and all.

Bowie Gray Jr wrote:

Another thing to look at is whether you have wear on your spindles that is causing increased hub wear.

My "spindle" as you call it is actually the front drive axle. The hub is splined to mate to the drive axle...no play there.

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:17 am

Vincent,

I assume you are torquing the new axle nut to spec . . .

My understanding is that these bearings/hubs are sensitive to proper torque as well as all the other parts being in spec.

Bowie Gray Jr · **Joined:** Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:31 am **Posts:** 98

Vincent Keene wrote:

Maybe 3 if I'm lucky.

Sealed assemblies---all one unit with studs and all.

My "spindle" as you call it is actually the front drive axle. The hub is splined to mate to the drive axle...no play there.

Ok, with "spindle" wear ruled out, there are a couple of things I would look into. This is assuming I am reading correctly and your failures are in the bearing itself and not the hub.

1) Duct some air to the brakes just to cool everything down. This is easy, will make EVERYTHING in the front end last longer, from brakes to bearings to ball joints, and is just good practice even if you don't have braking issues.

2) Something the Spec Miata guys are doing that might apply to you is this: They are taking brand new sealed assembly hubs, CAREFULLY disassembling them, cleaning them, then rebuilding them with better quality bearings and synthetic grease. Apparently OE bearing balls are not always perfectly round to begin with, and using better one extends the lifespan of the bearing exponentially. This is something I will be looking into for my next set.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:40 am

DickRasmussen wrote:

Vincent,

I assume you are torquing the new axle nut to spec . . .

My understanding is that these bearings/hubs are sensitive to proper torque as well as all the other parts being in spec.

Yep, I've been down that road too. I bought a $250.00 Mac torque wrench *just* to be used on my axle nuts.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:43 am

Bowie Gray Jr wrote:

...taking brand new sealed assembly hubs, CAREFULLY disassembling them, cleaning them, then rebuilding them with better quality bearings and synthetic grease. Apparently OE bearing balls are not always perfectly round to begin with, and using better one extends the lifespan of the bearing exponentially.

This is where I'm headed, but I'm not sure exactly how to get there. I was hoping to find a place that could do this very thing for me, using better bearings in the process. Any idea of a source?

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:47 am

Just to be clear on these hubs. I ran the OE set for 3 years and almost 100K miles before the first one died. Two years of that involved autocross. After I added negative camber (only 1.5 degrees) they started dropping like flies. At zero camber the stockers last a long time. However zero camber on track isn't really a sensible option.

George Bright · **Posted:** Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:49 am

Dixie Bearings Raleigh NC 231-6030

Bowie Gray Jr · **Joined:** Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:31 am **Posts:** 98

Vincent Keene wrote:

This is where I'm headed, but I'm not sure exactly how to get there. I was hoping to find a place that could do this very thing for me, using better bearings in the process. Any idea of a source?

Yeah, let me chase down the guy on specmiata.com and get back to you. I need to call him about how to order a set for me, I will get you in touch with him to see if he is interested in branching out a bit.

Another idea, especially if you have an old hub or two laying around for him to play with to get the hang of it, is to call Chris Schimmel up and see if he is willing to play with the project. He certainly has the skill...

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FWD Hubs (wheel bearings)

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