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 Post subject: Civic burning coolant - Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:11 pm 
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Background...

* 1998 Honda Civic LX (D16Y7 engine)
* Approx 205K miles
* Overheated about a year ago due to cracked radiator
* Seemed OK after replacing radiator
* Past few months car has had random miss for a few minutes on cold start
* Past month or so, it started to loose coolant (higher temps while at a stop triggered me to check coolant level). No puddle, no water in oil and no real notice of smoke in exhaust. Assumption was that while there was no smoke, it was burning it, but at a slow rate.
* Car has been down on power recently.
* Badly overdue for a valve adjustment, new plugs and plug wires. Time for new timing belt. Needs new oil pan gasket.
* Cast iron exhaust manifold (with integrated cat) has had a crack in it around the upper O2 sensor since before 60k miles.

My diagnosis...

* Assumed that due to the overheating episode a year ago that I either warped the head, damaged the head gasket, or both. And that it has been getting progressively worse.

What I did...

* Pulled plugs. Cylinders 1 and 2 looked a bit wetter than 3 and 4. I am no expert on diagnosing plugs, but they were also clearly past their prime and in need of replacement.
* Pulled head. Condition of cylinders matched plugs, but as I don't have much experience in looking at head gaskets, nothing jumps out at me. Maybe it looks like some evidence of leak on 1 and 2?
* I don't have a machinest straight edge, but using the best straight edge i have, I think the head is within spec (not warped).
* Took head to CHS. George said it looks like 1 and 2 had problems based upon coloration differences. He skims/resurfaces head and does valve job.
* I install rebuilt head, new head gasket (not a Honda head kit), new intake manifold gasket, new exhaust manifold gasket, new timing belt, new tensioner, new plugs, new plug wires, new oil pan gasket, misc other gaskets, timing is good (not first time I have replaced a timing belt) and adjust valves.
* I have a PDF copy of the factory manual and followed the instructions on torquing the head bolts. I used a beam type torque wrench.
* I don't try to resolve crack in exhaust manifold.
* As distributor was off, I need to check timing when running, but I noted position before removing and put it back in same place, so timing should be close.

What happened...
* Car started up right away and runs much smoother and quieter than before. Most likely due to new plugs, wires and valve adjustment.
* However, I now got a steady stream of white smoke from the exhaust manifold. It does not smell of oil and I believe it is coolant. Heat shield on manifold covers the crack, so I can't see for sure, but I believe it is coming out the crack.
* No leaks otherwise, no CEL, car not overheating.
* I let the car idle to get up to temp to let thermostat open so I can burp cooling system.
* Eventually the smoke lessens significantly, but it is still there. Some white vapor from tail pipe that wasn't there before. Maybe when the exhaust manifold heats up, the crack closes up some so you see less smoke from manifold and more from exhaust?
* If you let it idle for a minute or so, then rev it a bit, you get an immediate increase in smoke from the exhaust manifold area.

Clearly I am bummed out about the entire thing. I suspect something is wrong with the head gasket, but I find it hard to believe that it appears to be burning more coolant now than before? Previously other than a bit down on power and the slow consumption of coolant, there was no external evidence it was burning (no smoke inside engine bay and none out the tail pipe). Now it is clearly burning coolant. At this point I am pretty disgusted with the whole thing and need to take a break. I may or may not work on it tomorrow. Assuming someone here doesn't come up with better ideas, I am going to...

* Remove heat shield from exhaust manifold so I can verify exactly where smoke is coming from (crack in manifold or from exhaust manifold gasket).
* Pull the plugs and look at them.
* Remove the valve cover and check/re-torque the head bolts.

Anyone have any ideas on what to do or check? Someone please provide me with a silver bullet as I don't want to pull the head off again.

Richard

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 Post subject: Re: Civic burning coolant - Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:22 pm 
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Did you use new head bolts/studs?

There have been very subtle changes in d series head gaskets for the varying engines : a6 z6 y7 y8 etc. Are you sure the non OE gasket was correct for your y7?

My y7 had that same crack from 100k - 184k.... no worries there.

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 Post subject: Re: Civic burning coolant - Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:45 pm 
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was the head pressure tested? could have a small crack which would explain the white vapor from the tailpipe. is it still consuming water?


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 Post subject: Re: Civic burning coolant - Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:03 pm 
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JamesShort wrote:
Did you use new head bolts/studs?

There have been very subtle changes in d series head gaskets for the varying engines : a6 z6 y7 y8 etc. Are you sure the non OE gasket was correct for your y7?

My y7 had that same crack from 100k - 184k.... no worries there.

Regarding the head bolts. I reused the old ones. I am not looking at the factory manual right now, but I don't think they said they had to be replaced and i also seemed to think the torque spec wasn't that high (then again I am used to 80 ft/lb torque spec on a few bolts in Porsche transmissions). So my gut is telling me that those bolts have not yielded.

Regarding the head gasket. I don't know and I am not sure even how I would know. It didn't look like the factory gasket, but it looked close. The ports for water, oil, etc. all seemed to match up. I can double check tomorrow, but I am pretty sure the head gasket kit was marked as being for the Y7 (maybe others as well).

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 Post subject: Re: Civic burning coolant - Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:19 pm 
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Jason Tower wrote:
was the head pressure tested? could have a small crack which would explain the white vapor from the tailpipe. is it still consuming water?

No. I contemplated it, but if I remember correctly George said it was rare to see this type of head have a crack. So as I was (am) on a real budget, I said no to having it pressure tested.

Regarding consumption, I think I evacuated the air from the system, but didn't run it much after I finished doing that. It never seemed to smoke before and is smoking now. So I am assuming it is consuming much more than it did earlier.

My uneducated guess is that it is still the head gasket. But I can't explain why. But maybe the head is cracked.

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 Post subject: Re: Civic burning coolant - Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:00 am 
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really dumb question, but did you verify the HG was installed right side up? the honda ones i've seen are almost but not entirely symmetrical, upside down installation would be quite easy.

also fwiw, my buddy was losing coolant on his spec e30 car and it turned out to be a cracked head. entirely different motor but still, it happens.


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 Post subject: Re: Civic burning coolant - Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:17 am 
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Join Andy Hollis' ST civic rebuild page on face book. He talks a lot about head studs and headgaskets for his d16a6.

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 Post subject: Re: Civic burning coolant - Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:24 am 
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Good info :
Quote:
If you bought your CRX or Civic used, it is quite likely that the head has been reworked at some time in its life, as overheating is common in these cars. The metal of the head bolts expands at a different rate than that of the aluminum parts they hold together and leakage occurs. If enough coolant leaks out, or if the combustion chamber gases leak into the coolant passages, the car will overheat. This usually warps the head. The fix that most shops employ is to simply machine it flat, but there is a service limit on this thickness. Often, it requires more than the limit to cure the warp and many shops will just cut enough to make it flat regardless of that limit. Cheaper for the customer that way. You may have inherited such a head.

BTW, there is a technique whereby the head is bent back into shape and then a minimal surface cut taken to finish it off. Very few shops can do this effectively, though.

To measure the head thickness while still on the car, remove the distributor (plug the hole with a shop rag to minimize the oil drip) and valve cover. Next, position a caliper across the span from the valve cover mounting surface down to the bottom of the head at the area just abiove the "D16A6" designation. Rock the caliper around to get the smallest reading you can and that will be your thickness. A better measurement requires removal of the head.

In addition to warpage, a high mileage head will likely need exhaust valves and guides, as the high temps tend to wear these quickly. Be careful on each of these to service them per the shop manual. Many shops will take short cuts on the guides. Do it per the FSM.

Same with the valve job...specs are clear. Do not exceed.

Replacements valves and springs should come from Honda to be certain they are correct. Most parts store springs are not exactly the same length or rate as OE. And the exhaust valves tend to be of the wrong material to improve performance (chromed or sodium-filled). In addition, the head thickness may not be correct which affects compression.

While a standard service procedure for many marques, shimming of worn valves springs or to correct valvetrain geometry when cutting new seats is not allowed on a D16A6, per the service manual. Make certain your head guy understands this. This one cost us a couple of championships.

If you have an 88 and your cam needs replacing, you are in a tough spot. Honda has discontinued this part and the 89-91 cam does not supercede. 14.11 would provide alternate-sourcing relief, but only for a cam that delivers the same cam event specs. There is nothing like this in the aftermarket at the moment.

And finally a note on cleaning. Many shops will bead-blast a head to clean the combustion chambers and ports. This is not allowed as it alters the surface texture of these surfaces. Instead, request only that chemicals and/or high-pressure washing be used. A dishwasher-style parts washer is also quite effective. A bead-blasted head will stick out like a sore thumb and at least one national championship has been lost to this point.

Once your head is done, it's time to bolt it back onto the block and for that we'll need a gasket. Honda responded to the overheating issue with an improved design head gasket (MLS) and spiral-shanked head bolts. The spiral bolts expand at a rate more similar to the aluminum they secure. The steel gasket has similar properties and is also less likely to blow through under pressure. There is no actual performance advantage to using this gasket other than reliability as its compressed dimensions are the same as the standard composite piece. Note: These are not supercedes but are instead legal to use per the TSB.

There has been some debate on whether the TSB applies only to Civic models or whether the CRX is considered to be a trim level of the Civic for the purposes of TSBs. Honda is inconsistent in their offifical documentation in this regard but evidence suggests that for the purposes of TSBs that a CRX *is* a trim level. Examples of this can be found in the following TSBs: 88-026, 88-031, 89-007, 89-027, 91-016 & 91-031. Each of these specifies "Civic - All" at the top, and then spells out specific affected trim levels (e.g. 3DR DX, 4DR, DX & LX, CRX, etc.). Each time, CRX is called out specifically as a trim level. Since 97-047 applies to all non-VTEC Civics regardless of trim level, it follows that the CRX is included. The confusion among competitors seems to lie in the inconsistency of responses given to inquiries made to various folks at Honda. A service manager gives a different answer from the call center operator at Honda Customer Service which is again different from what HPD reps have said. We are attempting to get official confirmation on our conclusions but the evidence seems pretty clear.

Here's a link to the TSB: http://hondaworkshop.com/misc/97-047TSB.jpg

Speaking of head gaskets, the TSB gasket is commonly referred to as a 5-layer, and may well have been at one time. But now it is composed of four layers. Three are .010" and the fourth is .018", for a total of .048". There is another D-series MLS head gasket introduced on the 92+ VTEC-equipped cars, that is thinner with only three layers. This gasket is commonly supplied mistakenly by Honda service departments if you ask for the "MLS head gasket for D series", or used by race shops looking to "do you a favor". Fortunately, it looks different and can easily be detected visually with no disassembly. Furthermore, the compressed thickness can be checked with a feeler gauge near the back of the motor between the head and block. In fact, this was checked at an impound inspection at Nationals in 2009. All cars passed. One final detail on the TSB gasket, note that the bolt tightening pattern and procedure is different than is used for the standard gasket. Also, make sure that the rockers are all loose when installing the head, and also that all of the pistons are halfway down the cylinder so you don't get piston-to-valve contact.

Once the head is bolted on you'll need to time the engine and install the timing belt. Carefully reposition first the head to TDC #1 and then the block. You dont want to ruin everything when you are this close to being done. Note that the Si has a different procedure from the DX and HF motors, with the cam pulley marks aligning differently. This is something not correct in the online Euro/JDM CRX manual many folks use.

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 Post subject: Re: Civic burning coolant - Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:35 am 
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Quote:
If you bought your CRX or Civic used, it is quite likely that the head has been reworked at some time in its life, as overheating is common in these cars. The metal of the head bolts expands at a different rate than that of the aluminum parts they hold together and leakage occurs.

I don't get this. Every aluminum head from every other manufacturer is held on by steel bolts. I'd look elsewhere for the root cause. Unless Honda just did a really poor job with this design.

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 Post subject: Re: Civic burning coolant - Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:03 am 
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Jason Tower wrote:
really dumb question, but did you verify the HG was installed right side up? the honda ones i've seen are almost but not entirely symmetrical, upside down installation would be quite easy.

I almost did. I put the gasket down upside down initially and as you say almost everything lines up, but it seemed like a passage on the extreme edges of the block were just not quite right (about 1/2 blocked). I flipped the gasket and everything lined up.

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 Post subject: Re: Civic burning coolant - Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:39 am 
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JamesShort wrote:
Good info :

James, Thanks for the info. I may look at Andy's page later today. One thing that jumps out at me is that the TSB is dated 1997 and looks to be an updated design for the older D16 engine. I am wondering if Honda then used the updated MLS gasket on the later D16 engines such as my 1998 D16Y7? Also many of his comments are geared toward a new owner having a mystery head that they may not know what the history is, or what has been done. While mine did overheat, I believe it was minimal and frankly I probably could have put in new plugs, adjusted the valves and continued to drive it and just added coolant every so often. The coolant consumption was really that low. In fact, in hindsight, I am kicking myself for not just doing that. I now suspect the reduction in power was just old plugs.

I double checked the head gasket box this morning. It is Fel-Pro brand (bought at Advance Auto) and lists it as being for 1996-2000 SOHC 1590cc. That would fit my D16Y7 and a few other non-VTEC engines of that same time frame. It was a MLS design. I can't say how many layers it had. At least three, maybe four.

As things were not catastrophically bad to begin with, I am tending to think that he head bolts and maybe even the head are OK. Maybe the head was cracked and it became worse during the valve job and resurfacing process? But since it is much worse now and the biggest change (in my opinion) was the move to the non-OEM head gasket, the new head gasket is my #1 best guess as to blame.

I am leaning toward pulling the head off, having it pressure tested and then using a genuine Honda head gasket. I might even buy new head bolts.

One last question. The factory manual and literature with the gasket talk about ensuring the surface of the block and head have the proper roughness. It sounds like it can't be too smooth, or too rough. That either extremes may prevent the gasket from sealing. How do you tell what is too rough?

Richard

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 Post subject: Re: Civic burning coolant - Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:18 pm 
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JamesShort wrote:
Did you use new head bolts/studs?

There have been very subtle changes in d series head gaskets for the varying engines : a6 z6 y7 y8 etc. Are you sure the non OE gasket was correct for your y7?

My y7 had that same crack from 100k - 184k.... no worries there.


Yeah but AFAIK the gaskets all interchange.

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 Post subject: Re: Civic burning coolant - Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:33 am 
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I don't have much to add, since honestly your story sounds very unusual. All I can say is that if it was me, I would not be suspecting head bolts or head gasket on a street-driven car that is consuming coolant at idle in the garage. In my experience, most head gaskets (even ebay ones) do fine at normal running conditions, as do re-used head bolts. Inferior parts seem to start to be a problem at high stress levels only. We have a Fel-Pro in Simon and it lasted fine for 24 hours.

I'd be looking for something a lot more drastic or obvious like a crack or a big piece of contamination that got wedged into the mating surface during assembly. For this to be bad enough that coolant is being sucked into the combustion chamber during idling points to something more drastic than a marginal HG or bolts.

Couple of questions:
- Are you SURE that it's burning coolant? White smoke out the tailpipe can be normal depending on the temperature and humidity outside. But of course not in the engine bay (which it sounds like you are seeing). Have you run it hot enough to burn off all the crap on the outside of the motor?
- Have you done a block test looking for combustion gases in the coolant? $30 loan-a-tool at AZ, plus like $9 for liquid.
- Did the head torque down evenly? Have you inspected the head/block interface very carefully with a light and inspection mirror looking for something caught?
- Have you done a leakdown and/or compression?

Sorry if you have answered any of these questions already, I kinda skimmed the thread....

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 Post subject: Re: Civic burning coolant - Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:54 pm 
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MikeWhitney wrote:
Couple of questions:
- Are you SURE that it's burning coolant? White smoke out the tailpipe can be normal depending on the temperature and humidity outside. But of course not in the engine bay (which it sounds like you are seeing). Have you run it hot enough to burn off all the crap on the outside of the motor?
- Have you done a block test looking for combustion gases in the coolant? $30 loan-a-tool at AZ, plus like $9 for liquid.
- Did the head torque down evenly? Have you inspected the head/block interface very carefully with a light and inspection mirror looking for something caught?
- Have you done a leakdown and/or compression?

Sorry if you have answered any of these questions already, I kinda skimmed the thread....

Mike,

Thanks for your reply. Answers below...

* I think it is coolant. At least when I smelled it and it doesn't like oil.
* I agree regarding the tailpipe. This was happening on the day that was so cool. So the tailpipe vapor may have been normal. But the vapor from the exhaust manifold was not normal.
* At first I was hoping it was just something that needed to burn off, but it got hot enough to open the thermostat and kick on the cooling fan. And it put out more when you rev it.
* The head torqued down as I expected with zero drama. I used the pattern from the factory manual and it included three different torque levels/steps and a forth step to retorque the two center bolts.
* I haven't tested the coolant. I may give that a try.
* I haven't tried to use a mirror to see if I can find any debris stuck between the head and block. It may be really hard to do with the intake and exhaust manifolds in place. I tried to be careful on my cleaning and when I put the head on the block, but anything is possible.
* I have borrowed a leakdown and compression tester (thanks Richard Nuss!) I will test that in the next day or two.

Richard

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1972 Porsche 914
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Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.


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 Post subject: Re: Civic burning coolant - Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:28 pm 
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Update...

Dry compression and leak down results...

1 200 <5%
2 200 <5%
3 195 9%
4 210 <5%

I started it up for the first time in a week and it was putting out much less vapor from both the exhaust and the crack in the exhaust manifold. I checked timing and then took it for a 15 minute test drive. When back no vapor from exhaust pipe and nothing from exhaust manifold. If I let it idle a bit, then quickly blip the throttle, I can get a bit of a small puff from the exhaust manifold, but not much. While cylinder three seems to be a bit suspect (I probably should have double checked it), I think overall it looks generally OK for 202K miles?? Currently my plan is to drive it and just watch fluid levels closely. Comments?

Richard

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