Is this Porsche 944 Turbo a good deal?

Jason Tower · **Joined:** Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:31 pm **Posts:** 1173

Michael Czeiszperger wrote:

Thank everyone for their help. I'm sure this topic has been rehashed before, and I appreciate the advice from more experienced hands.

I seriously considered the Miata, and while its a fine car (I autocrossed my brother's at one event last year) in the end I don't like convertibles, and coming from a Subaru Forester its too much of a jump.

At this point I'm in the market for some sort of e36 BMW in good working condition with all the normal problem areas addressed, preferably a 4-door and obviously a manual transmission. On the other hand, as a track novice I don't need anything fancy. A track-ready suspension is a must, but the standard engine should be powerful enough.

stock suspenson is fine as long as it's in good condition. of course if it needs to be replaced then by all means install something stiffer but it's hardly a requirement. all you really need are track-ready brake pads and up to date maintenance.

TomFreeman · **Posted:** Mon May 10, 2010 4:05 am

The cosmetically challenged e36 I linked to might be a little rougher than you want, but the concept is right. It's a daily-drivable car that's close to stock that's had a ton of suspension wear items replaced with close-to-stock equivalents. It was built for a novice (Matt's wife) to take to the track and start learning.

The downside with the e36 (and pretty much all BMWs) are their relative complication to other cars, and the cost to maintain/fix. There are a LOT of potential failure points on an e36 that MUST be addressed on an older, higher mileage car like that. If you're going to track it, you have to make sure stuff like rear suspension mounting points are in good shape and have fresh mounts/reinforcements. You also want to budget for motor mounts and transmission mounts if they haven't already been done.

Back in the thread where Jason Tower was looking for a trackable daily driver, this e36 buyers guide was linked to. They are great cars, but they can be moneypits if you don't stay on top of them. Lots of people track them because they are decently quick (even in non-M form) easy to drive, and communicate really well.

Michael Czeiszperger · **Joined:** Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:35 am **Posts:** 861

TomFreeman wrote:

The downside with the e36 (and pretty much all BMWs) are their relative complication to other cars, and the cost to maintain/fix. There are a LOT of potential failure points on an e36 that MUST be addressed on an older, higher mileage car like that. If you're going to track it, you have to make sure stuff like rear suspension mounting points are in good shape and have fresh mounts/reinforcements. You also want to budget for motor mounts and transmission mounts if they haven't already been done.

Sounds like a reasonable tradeoff for performance, and from all accounts less of a money pit compared to an older Porsche. :-)

steve remchak · **Posted:** Mon May 10, 2010 9:28 am

TomFreeman wrote:

The cosmetically challenged e36 I linked to might be a little rougher than you want, but the concept is right. It's a daily-drivable car that's close to stock that's had a ton of suspension wear items replaced with close-to-stock equivalents. It was built for a novice (Matt's wife) to take to the track and start learning.

The downside with the e36 (and pretty much all BMWs) are their relative complication to other cars, and the cost to maintain/fix. There are a LOT of potential failure points on an e36 that MUST be addressed on an older, higher mileage car like that. If you're going to track it, you have to make sure stuff like rear suspension mounting points are in good shape and have fresh mounts/reinforcements. You also want to budget for motor mounts and transmission mounts if they haven't already been done.

Back in the thread where Jason Tower was looking for a trackable daily driver, this e36 buyers guide was linked to. They are great cars, but they can be moneypits if you don't stay on top of them. Lots of people track them because they are decently quick (even in non-M form) easy to drive, and communicate really well.

coolant system also.... very important to maintain / replace.

on the bright side Michael. brake rotors are relatively cheap and last forever. track pads wear for a decent amount of time particularly if you duct them. wheels and tires are readily available, and you can run 235/40/17s under them with no problems.

motors are mostly bullet-proof as is drivetrain.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Mon May 10, 2010 9:41 am

Front lower LCAs/BJs. At least on the non M chassis the outer BJ is replaceable.

I think I read that BMWCCA requires them to be replaced every 2-3 years. I don't remember where I read it though, but it's an easy job and not terribly expensive.

What are your folks opinions of the M50 (obd1) vs M52 (obd2) in the 325 vs the 328 e36? (Sorry to thread jack Michael, but you may care to hear as well). Is there a considerably less usable torque in the 2.5L vs the 2.8L to the point that having to play the OBD2 game is worth it? If I got an e36 325/328 I'd likely autocross (STX) and track it so the lower end torque is definitely a must for autox where it may not be as important in a track setting.

TomFreeman · **Posted:** Mon May 10, 2010 9:58 am

steve remchak wrote:

coolant system also.... very important to maintain / replace.

on the bright side Michael. brake rotors are relatively cheap and last forever. track pads wear for a decent amount of time particularly if you duct them. wheels and tires are readily available, and you can run 235/40/17s under them with no problems.

motors are mostly bullet-proof as is drivetrain.

^^^what he said^^^

Steve has broken plenty of stuff on his e36, and like me, he's mostly a mastercard mechanic. This man knows how much they cost to run.

Keith Quistorff · **Posted:** Mon May 10, 2010 10:15 am

JamesShort wrote:

What are your folks opinions of the M50 (obd1) vs M52 (obd2) in the 325 vs the 328 e36? (Sorry to thread jack Michael, but you may care to hear as well). Is there a considerably less usable torque in the 2.5L vs the 2.8L to the point that having to play the OBD2 game is worth it? If I got an e36 325/328 I'd likely autocross (STX) and track it so the lower end torque is definitely a must for autox where it may not be as important in a track setting.

The M50 manifold swap is a good upgrade for E36 328, definitely helps high rpm performance. There are cheap conversion kits out there that most people report reasonable results with, but the only kit I'd put on my own car is the Eurosport kit (http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com/intakes.html) as it's the only one I'm aware of that is designed to adapt all the OBD2 hardware onto an M50 manifold.

The biggest hurdle, IMO, with running a 328 in STX is the rear diff - all 328s have open diff. While the E36 LSDs (from M3 or 325) bolt right in on an E36 328, the gearing is different (3.23 or 3.15 vs. 2.93), and STX ruleset requires that you keep original gearing.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Mon May 10, 2010 10:30 am

Keith Quistorff wrote:

JamesShort wrote:

What are your folks opinions of the M50 (obd1) vs M52 (obd2) in the 325 vs the 328 e36? (Sorry to thread jack Michael, but you may care to hear as well). Is there a considerably less usable torque in the 2.5L vs the 2.8L to the point that having to play the OBD2 game is worth it? If I got an e36 325/328 I'd likely autocross (STX) and track it so the lower end torque is definitely a must for autox where it may not be as important in a track setting.

The M50 manifold swap is a good upgrade for E36 328, definitely helps high rpm performance. There are cheap conversion kits out there that most people report reasonable results with, but the only kit I'd put on my own car is the Eurosport kit (http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com/intakes.html) as it's the only one I'm aware of that is designed to adapt all the OBD2 hardware onto an M50 manifold.

The biggest hurdle, IMO, with running a 328 in STX is the rear diff - all 328s have open diff. While the E36 LSDs (from M3 or 325) bolt right in on an E36 328, the gearing is different (3.23 or 3.15 vs. 2.93), and STX ruleset requires that you keep original gearing.

Well the lack of LSD in the 328 (and a 325 diff -> 328 not being STX legal) has sold me on the 325

.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Mon May 10, 2010 12:12 pm

Keith Quistorff wrote:

JamesShort wrote:

What are your folks opinions of the M50 (obd1) vs M52 (obd2) in the 325 vs the 328 e36? (Sorry to thread jack Michael, but you may care to hear as well). Is there a considerably less usable torque in the 2.5L vs the 2.8L to the point that having to play the OBD2 game is worth it? If I got an e36 325/328 I'd likely autocross (STX) and track it so the lower end torque is definitely a must for autox where it may not be as important in a track setting.

The M50 manifold swap is a good upgrade for E36 328, definitely helps high rpm performance. There are cheap conversion kits out there that most people report reasonable results with, but the only kit I'd put on my own car is the Eurosport kit (http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com/intakes.html) as it's the only one I'm aware of that is designed to adapt all the OBD2 hardware onto an M50 manifold.

The biggest hurdle, IMO, with running a 328 in STX is the rear diff - all 328s have open diff. While the E36 LSDs (from M3 or 325) bolt right in on an E36 328, the gearing is different (3.23 or 3.15 vs. 2.93), and STX ruleset requires that you keep original gearing.

+1 on the M50 manifold swap. mine came from Eurosport also. throw in a cam swap, which Eurosport also sells programming for and then add this ... :twisted:

http://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac---e36-performance-built-rear-differentials-p566.aspx .... and come run with the big boys James.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

steve remchak wrote:

Keith Quistorff wrote:

JamesShort wrote:

What are your folks opinions of the M50 (obd1) vs M52 (obd2) in the 325 vs the 328 e36? (Sorry to thread jack Michael, but you may care to hear as well). Is there a considerably less usable torque in the 2.5L vs the 2.8L to the point that having to play the OBD2 game is worth it? If I got an e36 325/328 I'd likely autocross (STX) and track it so the lower end torque is definitely a must for autox where it may not be as important in a track setting.

The M50 manifold swap is a good upgrade for E36 328, definitely helps high rpm performance. There are cheap conversion kits out there that most people report reasonable results with, but the only kit I'd put on my own car is the Eurosport kit (http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com/intakes.html) as it's the only one I'm aware of that is designed to adapt all the OBD2 hardware onto an M50 manifold.

The biggest hurdle, IMO, with running a 328 in STX is the rear diff - all 328s have open diff. While the E36 LSDs (from M3 or 325) bolt right in on an E36 328, the gearing is different (3.23 or 3.15 vs. 2.93), and STX ruleset requires that you keep original gearing.

+1 on the M50 manifold swap. mine came from Eurosport also. throw in a cam swap, which Eurosport also sells programming for and then add this ... :twisted:

http://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac---e36-performance-built-rear-differentials-p566.aspx .... and come run with the big boys James.

+2. The M50 swap w/ Eurosport kit on my M3 gained most of the +40hp over stock. It's really an amazing HP bump from such a subtle change...

JamesShort · **Posted:** Mon May 10, 2010 1:01 pm

steve remchak wrote:

Keith Quistorff wrote:

JamesShort wrote:

What are your folks opinions of the M50 (obd1) vs M52 (obd2) in the 325 vs the 328 e36? (Sorry to thread jack Michael, but you may care to hear as well). Is there a considerably less usable torque in the 2.5L vs the 2.8L to the point that having to play the OBD2 game is worth it? If I got an e36 325/328 I'd likely autocross (STX) and track it so the lower end torque is definitely a must for autox where it may not be as important in a track setting.

The M50 manifold swap is a good upgrade for E36 328, definitely helps high rpm performance. There are cheap conversion kits out there that most people report reasonable results with, but the only kit I'd put on my own car is the Eurosport kit (http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com/intakes.html) as it's the only one I'm aware of that is designed to adapt all the OBD2 hardware onto an M50 manifold.

The biggest hurdle, IMO, with running a 328 in STX is the rear diff - all 328s have open diff. While the E36 LSDs (from M3 or 325) bolt right in on an E36 328, the gearing is different (3.23 or 3.15 vs. 2.93), and STX ruleset requires that you keep original gearing.

+1 on the M50 manifold swap. mine came from Eurosport also. throw in a cam swap, which Eurosport also sells programming for and then add this ... :twisted:

http://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac---e36-performance-built-rear-differentials-p566.aspx .... and come run with the big boys James.

So what is your thoughts on the 325 vs 328 models? Is the power spectrum superior on the 328 such that the 328 plus LSD swap plus M50 IM swap would be a superior car to the 325? This would put me in DSP due to the FD change unless the R/P froma 328 would fit the LSD of a 325/M which I doubt is the case.

I guess my alternative is to wait for my 19 year old brother in law to get to the point where the repair/maintenance bill is so high on his 98 M3 that I can nab it from him for a few grand

.

Michael Czeiszperger · **Joined:** Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:35 am **Posts:** 861

Trying to hijack the thread back! How do I search for an "E36" for sale on forums? As far as I can tell very few people put "E36" in the description, at least on Craigslist.

Thanks...

steve remchak · **Posted:** Mon May 10, 2010 1:10 pm

Michael Czeiszperger wrote:

Trying to hijack the thread back! How do I search for an "E36" for sale on forums? As far as I can tell very few people put "E36" in the description, at least on Craigslist.

Thanks...

1992 thru 1999 bmw is typically how i do it.

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Mon May 10, 2010 1:13 pm

Michael Czeiszperger wrote:

Trying to hijack the thread back! How do I search for an "E36" for sale on forums? As far as I can tell very few people put "E36" in the description, at least on Craigslist.

Thanks...

Search for years 1995 - 1999 for E36 M3s. Sedans were 1997 and 1998 only. Also, check PM.

Keith Quistorff · **Posted:** Mon May 10, 2010 4:42 pm

JamesShort wrote:

So what is your thoughts on the 325 vs 328 models? Is the power spectrum superior on the 328 such that the 328 plus LSD swap plus M50 IM swap would be a superior car to the 325? This would put me in DSP due to the FD change unless the R/P froma 328 would fit the LSD of a 325/M which I doubt is the case.

Yes, the 328 w/LSD and M50 manifold is definitely superior to a 325. The only advantage that comes to mind for the 325 is it's a few pounds lighter, but not much. The additional torque of the 2.8L engine far more than makes up for the few extra pounds mass.

As for an STX legal LSD for the 328, options include swapping the LSD unit / chunk from an M3 or 325 into the 328 rear diff, or buying a custom built diff from diffsonline, etc. Not sure about the cost to have a shop do the chunk swap, but it should be a good bit less than buying a custom diff.

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