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If you were going to build something that could run 2:05 or 2:06 flat out on VIR Full and needed to do it for, oh, 13 hours straight, and ideally get decent fuel mileage, what would it be? And yes, I mean as cheaply as possible.

Starting with an existing race car is a possibility. I've thought about even a Mustang Challenge car as a potential starting point, but my fear is they may be a bit heavy. Heavy can be made to go fast, it just needs more HP and then brakes more stuff.

My thoughts lean toward an E36 BMW. 300HP shouldn't be too hard to get in reliable form. Some aero and the big Stoptechs we have on the Acura should get it done.

I've also considered a Cayman build and have feelers out on the cost of the engine, but I'm pretty sure it's just going to be too much money. Front engined and RWD is just gonna be cheaper all the way around than mid-engine.

Any other suggestions or pointers to cars for sale that would be a good starting point (stuff already caged or not) would be welcome.

And no, putting a cage in the 917 is NOT an option.


--Donnie

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What kind of classing restrictions are you going to be stuck with? Most of my ideas will likely put you in some horrific or non-existent class.

I like your e36 concept, but I'd yank out the S50/S52 and drop in a mild LSx with the Vorschlag kit.

Even better than that would be an FD RX-7 with the same motor. Better aero, better suspension design, tons of room for wheel/tire/brake.

I'm sure you realize that you've essentially opened up Pandora's box with this question

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Tom Freeman
'98 M3/4/5 | '93 Spec3 325i | '12 TSX sport wagon | '03 Tahoe
Team Silver Bullets '91 240SX

What about a C5Z06?

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2001 Honda S2000 - SOLD
2012 Boss 302
2003 BMW 330i

that kind of lap time in a street car is gonna be tough unless it has pretty big power numbers and that means lousy fuel mileage. peter krause gets around vir full in the low 2:00 range in his spec racer ford, with a 140hp four cylinder motor. i doubt you'll find a better speed/fuel ratio than that, and at reasonable cost.

I'd say E36. To me, though, 2:05 sounds lie a pretty big ask from an E36. I think Chet Whittel's ITS unofficial record at VIR still stands, at something like a 2:12. That was set before the E36s got restrictors.

I'd probably go hunting for a 911 or a Corvette instead. I don't know what the budget of "as cheaply as possible" actually means, but don't ex-GAC and SWC cars regularly come up for sale?

The only other thing I can think of that would go that fast for not much money is something purpose built. Like a Radical, or some other sports racer thing. I'm guessing this will need to have fenders to run at the 13, so a Formula Mazda or other open wheel thing is out.

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

Yeah, Corvette is the easy answer. A friend who runs NASA's ST-2 class in an Ex T1 C5 Vette runs in the 2:05 range around full with about 360whp

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Tom Freeman
'98 M3/4/5 | '93 Spec3 325i | '12 TSX sport wagon | '03 Tahoe
Team Silver Bullets '91 240SX

Talk to your buddy Leh.

http://www.archive.org/details/GSCMotor ... lcourselap

I think you could get the M3 to 2:10-2:12's pretty consistently and hold up for the long haul. You'll still probably have highish fuel consumption.

Is a sport racer an option?

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“I feel safer on a racetrack than I do on Houston's freeways.” - A.J. Foyt

Kevin Butler
Mobetta Autosport Spec E30 #612
2003 C5 Z06 Corvette
AFR Miata, SM2 61, '93 w/200 SC'd RWHP - soon to be resurrected
Waaaay too many other projects....

Good questions, but let me add some background. My Acura RSX with 237HP just ran 2:09 in qualifying for the 13. We were DQ'ed for sound (thanks to a new sound meter location), but we ran it. Now if THAT car can do a 2:09, I have to think an E36 could be built reasonably that could get to 2:05. Yeah, it might take Leh Keen to get it out of it, but he had so much fun in this race that he's already on board for next year.

As for the ruleset, ITE is what we're after. This year's supps referenced the WDCR ITE ruleset, which includes this:

The WDCR-ITE class includes competition vehicles from:
Escort World Challenge
SCCA World Challenge
IMSA (Street stock classes)
Motorola Cup
Grand AM Cup
Honda-Michelin Challenge, Players Challenge
Firehawk Series
Corvette Challenge
SSA & SSGT (SCCA Showroom Stock)
SCCA Pro Solo Street Prepared Class
NASA Performance Touring A (PTA)
NASA Super Touring (ST)
NASA Honda Challenge (H1)
NASA American Iron Extreme (AIX)
BMWCCA HP
BMWCCA IP
BMWCCA JP

You can also get stuff specifically classed by NCR. I doubt the LS swap into a BMW would fit in anything above, and is probably gonna be "too much" for NCR to allow, too. Even if mildly built. Good idea, though.

Karl, what was powering the ITS car? Surely a more powerful E36 than what ITS allows could be built fairly easily. Wouldn't that be like a 200HP kind of thing? Or is ITS more than that now? I can't say I pay much attention to IT rules outside of this ITE mess, which isn't really IT at all. But for ITE I can do about whatever I want as far as motor as long as it's a BMW block and still fit in NASA ST or one of the BMWCCA classes.

There are no sports racers legal for the 13. And even the Great Peter Krause don't go "low" 2 minute times in an SRF. Those things run similar to Spec Miatas in terms of time.

Hmm, a Corvette isn't something I had thought about much. Hmm.


--Donnie

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Corvette or an ls1 powered fd. Of course old fox bodies aren't very heavy but are going to require a bit of work to run a time that fast.

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In need of car.

Shame about sport racers - Krause did a 2:04 this year.

American Iron Xtreme looks promising.

http://www.nasaracing.net/NASA_LAP_RECORDS_2009_v7.xls

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“I feel safer on a racetrack than I do on Houston's freeways.” - A.J. Foyt

Kevin Butler
Mobetta Autosport Spec E30 #612
2003 C5 Z06 Corvette
AFR Miata, SM2 61, '93 w/200 SC'd RWHP - soon to be resurrected
Waaaay too many other projects....

Based on that S.S., I'd say a corvette is a pretty safe bet. Plus they are a ton and half of fun to drive.

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In need of car.

that's pretty impressive! still, i'd expect a non-trivial difference in lap times between qualifying and "do it for 13 hours straight".

I'm nearly positive that it's this very car. It's changed hands at least a couple times, so I couldn't begin to guess how far off its top, original form it now is. Anyway, at its fastest, it dyno'd as high as mid 220s, but usually in the high teens. Stock 325is motor with all the IT bells and whistles. The guy who was working for Sunbelt at the time the motor was originally built tells me it was legal, too. Motec M4 brain inside the stock ECU case. Shortly after this car clobbered everything in its path, it got a restrictor. It's now classed in ITS with the restrictor, or ITR without it.

Here's a quote from the sandbox, from Steve Ekrich, who's got a very fast ITS RX-7:



So...best of everything, pre-restrictor, 22xhp E36, being driven in the grass a lot of the time, is doing 2:12s. That's what makes me think that 2:06s in an E36 is a big ask.

I defer to Whitney, David White, and the other E36 gurus though; maybe if you get into motor swaps, or M-Thrizzle stuff, you could get there. If it were me, I'd get a Radical.

(Edit: I missed where sports racers are off the table, so nevermind the Radical)

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

So, you are going for reliability and somehow a swapped or heavily modded E36 is looking better than a vette? I'm confused.

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2001 Honda S2000 - SOLD
2012 Boss 302
2003 BMW 330i

Yeah, I agree. Fast lap for this year's winner was a 2:15 during the race. I'd be happy with something that can go 2:06 in qualifying and maintain 2:10 easily in the race.



Where did I say that? I just said I hadn't thought about a Vette.



Really? Shouldn't be too hard to get 300 reliable horsepower into one (might not be as cheap as I'm thinking, but...) and add some aero and potentially some more lightness than ITS allows and it doesn't seem unreasonable to me. But that particular car still doesn't look like a great deal. I dunno, maybe not bad considering it's got MoTeC already that we could re-use on the new powerplant.


--Donnie

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