Need a new race car

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:52 pm

The 13 isn't "bump and grind" racing as much as it is "I've never even been to the US before, let alone VIR, and now I'm racing a car I've never been in on tires I've never been on and this is my first time racing at night." Let's just say people get unpredictable.

FWIW, my SM that won in 2005 had to be retired. It was an inch shorter than it was supposed to be, had every body panel bent except the hard top, and was pretty much just wore out. I suppose one could say it got "Saini'ed".

I'm having trouble buying the mileage thing AND getting good lap times with the Vette. All the "running hard" numbers have them at 5MPG or less. And you just have to assume you're going to be "running hard." You can get a driver to short shift and such if there's a current and immediate need, but to try to get people to do it for 13 hours just won't work. It's racing, and it just won't work. This much I know. "Taking it easy" in this kind of race means getting them to brake a little earlier, stay more smooth than they might normally stay, leave more room for other cars than they might normally leave, and don't take ANY chances (with passing or being passed). That's where you "lose" that five seconds per lap we're willing to give up over what the car *should* do since there are SO many cars in slower classes. It wasn't uncommon in the RSX to pass 10 cars a lap, sometimes a lot more.

And I guess the thing to point out is that the NSX used prices are down under $20k now for a higher mileage car. And yes, some of the Vette thing, I have to admit, is I just can't see myself a "Vette guy." I respect them and I even like them, I just don't really want to own one. If that mileage thing were better I'd still SERIOUSLY consider it, but I honestly think that one is a bit of a show stopper. The bigger V8s eat gas when pushed.

--Donnie

steve remchak · **Posted:** Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:08 pm

so Graham, now that you DD a pick-up truck have you changed your opinion of them? :lol:

Graham Jagger · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:53 am **Posts:** 1718

Ok given that there will be banging regardless of why. Then yeah if your car got that trashed. No Vette or NSX. The NSX is aluminum and will get punched in like a Bud beer can. You might want real sheet metal body panels. Just to protect wiring getting ripped up or tires getting punctured on bent in panels. I think a 65 Plymouth Fury, Black, with a slant 6. :wink:

On the gas mileage thing. Not to try and change your mind. But tell me where you researched 5mpg? Pushing a modified LS6. Yeah no doubt. But you said you would back off and conserve and didn't need a 2:04 lap all the time. With a real driver in my Z06 with little mods it will run 2:08 on fresh slicks. I'm sure of it. With further mods 2:04. Then I'll bet it runs 5mpg. I get 8.x mpg on the worst day at VIR. I run a full tank down to the low fuel warning. I reset the fuel ave on the computer. I averaged 2:14 laps easily on that. I don't drive as well as you do. So you should be smoother and know when and where to lay back a little and still maintain good lap times. You said you could live with 2:10s. My car right now with a decent (not new) Hoosiers will run 2:10 with a slightly better driver than me. I'm damn close to 2:10 on old R6s. 2:12 no problem. Now if I changed those weaker valve springs I mentioned, then re-tuned the rev limiter from 6400 to closer to 6800-7000. Yeah, I bet I'm on my way to 5mpg on a really hot lap. These computer controlled FI V-8s are nothing like the ones of the past. Heck I'm easily running 26-28mpg on the highway on a trip. Even towing my tire trailer full of crap I averaged almost 27 going down to Roebling. The fuel range really is a wild swing.

Now go look at that C5 monster Danny Popp has built. Yeah I'll bet he gets 5mpg on a flying lap. He can also run 1:52 at VIR and think nothing of it. He was on his way to a 1:50 but bobbled T11. That SOB can drive. That motor is putting out 600+hp NA. Very far from stock car.

I figured you weren't a Vette guy. You seem more at home as a Porsche guy. That's fine.

Now you might want to talk to the Mark and the Chin Motorsports crowd. Those guys are big time NSX fans and actually track them regularly. I know Mark told me he will only run an NA motor now since he has already popped the TC/SC one. I believe he has either a bolt in 4-point bar or a harness bar similar to what I use. But he might know of good references to get one gutted and caged up.

I would love to run VIR under the lights. I saw part of that enduro a couple of years ago. Chin or PCA ran right behind it so I was there. It was pretty cool.

Graham

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:20 pm

The MPG numbers come from my crew chief, Reid, combing a LOT of forums looking for data on that stuff.

You gotta remember that one of the main differences between the hot shoes and the rest of us is that the hot shoes are simply on the gas longer than we are. That uses more fuel. I've codriven a LOT of cars with Jason Saini and he regularly gets significantly worse mileage than me in the same damned car (and faster lap times, obviously). So it's kind of backwards to say that the faster guys will be BETTER at conserving fuel. Maybe if you're talking about the "uh-oh, we HAVE to conserve fuel to keep from having to do an additional stop before the end of the race" kind of thing, but otherwise, no).

And yeah, it could very well be that the NSX is no better in the bodywork arena than a fiberglass car would be for this race.

As for talking to folks with NSXes, I am already on that. Thanks to Jason Tower I've swapped a lot of email with the folks in this thread:

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130224

That car has run a 1:30 at CMP, so they know a thing or two about fast NSXes. They're one possibility for building a motor and doing the tuning, as well as some aero bits they plan to sell.

--Donnie

Graham Jagger · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:53 am **Posts:** 1718

steve remchak wrote:

so Graham, now that you DD a pick-up truck have you changed your opinion of them? :lol:

Yeah I have. I just drove a CTS today and so did Ann, we almost brought it home.

The Toyota is now totaled. Some dumbaxx in a rental Penske truck. Ann is sitting at a red light. He doesn't see her. Decides he will change lanes and attempts to climb over the front of the Toyota. It is now a much more compact car. Ann is ok but pissed. The same thing happened to her Monte Carlo barely 3 months ago and she was hurt. Then add in the attack on my other Z06 by FedEx. 3 cars in less than 2 years attacked by hauling company trucks.

So now we have the truck and the Vette. I'm not allowed to drive a stick for a while. She hates driving the Vette. So we're car shopping anyway. That and I'm buying a gun rack and shotgun for the truck. And putting a sign on the back window. DELIVERY TRUCKS BEWARE. DRIVER IS HOMICIDAL AND ARMED !!!!!!!!!

steve remchak · **Posted:** Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:01 am

Graham Jagger wrote:

steve remchak wrote:

so Graham, now that you DD a pick-up truck have you changed your opinion of them? :lol:

Yeah I have. I just drove a CTS today and so did Ann, we almost brought it home.

The Toyota is now totaled. Some dumbaxx in a rental Penske truck. Ann is sitting at a red light. He doesn't see her. Decides he will change lanes and attempts to climb over the front of the Toyota. It is now a much more compact car. Ann is ok but pissed. The same thing happened to her Monte Carlo barely 3 months ago and she was hurt. Then add in the attack on my other Z06 by FedEx. 3 cars in less than 2 years attacked by hauling company trucks.

So now we have the truck and the Vette. I'm not allowed to drive a stick for a while. She hates driving the Vette. So we're car shopping anyway. That and I'm buying a gun rack and shotgun for the truck. And putting a sign on the back window. DELIVERY TRUCKS BEWARE. DRIVER IS HOMICIDAL AND ARMED !!!!!!!!!

oh my.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Denis Budnewski and I were chatting about the VIR 13 today over lunch at the track, and what kinds of cars do well. He pointed out that Bimmerworld's car (White lightning?) has done exceptionally well -- it's an E36 with a 2.8 motor and something absurd like a 28 gallon fuel cell. Car can do 3 hours between pit stops..... Food for thought.

Of course it ain't gonna be doing 2:05 laps either. Oh and it has that darned strut suspension :twisted:

clinehall · **Posted:** Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:34 am

Graham Jagger wrote:

steve remchak wrote:

so Graham, now that you DD a pick-up truck have you changed your opinion of them? :lol:

Yeah I have. I just drove a CTS today and so did Ann, we almost brought it home.

The Toyota is now totaled. Some dumbaxx in a rental Penske truck. Ann is sitting at a red light. He doesn't see her. Decides he will change lanes and attempts to climb over the front of the Toyota. It is now a much more compact car. Ann is ok but pissed. The same thing happened to her Monte Carlo barely 3 months ago and she was hurt. Then add in the attack on my other Z06 by FedEx. 3 cars in less than 2 years attacked by hauling company trucks.

So now we have the truck and the Vette. I'm not allowed to drive a stick for a while. She hates driving the Vette. So we're car shopping anyway. That and I'm buying a gun rack and shotgun for the truck. And putting a sign on the back window. DELIVERY TRUCKS BEWARE. DRIVER IS HOMICIDAL AND ARMED !!!!!!!!!

Jeez, I don't even want to sit near you at the track any more with your luck. At least you are lucky enough to be hit by people with deep pockets.

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:57 am

MikeWhitney wrote:

Denis Budnewski and I were chatting about the VIR 13 today over lunch at the track, and what kinds of cars do well. He pointed out that Bimmerworld's car (White lightning?) has done exceptionally well -- it's an E36 with a 2.8 motor and something absurd like a 28 gallon fuel cell. Car can do 3 hours between pit stops..... Food for thought.

Of course it ain't gonna be doing 2:05 laps either. Oh and it has that darned strut suspension :twisted:

25 gallons is the max size you're allowed, so if they've got 28 then we need to look into that.

They weren't doing near 3 hours, but they were doing a bit over 2. We could go longer in the RSX. Their fast lap time in the race was a 2:15 and probably near a 2:10 in qualifying, I don't remember. But they put a car together that's made it the distance without trouble the last few years, and that's obviously why they've won it. There have been a lot of faster cars, though, and many have been close to going the distance, so I feel like it's just a matter of time before the ante must be upped. I doubt we're going to get ANY car to go the distance ourselves in its first year, so I figure we're at least two years away from having a good shot. Which is why I want to up the ante significantly if I can.

But it doesn't surprise me that two BMW guys were having lunch at the track and telling tall tales about another BMW that's been gettin-it-done.

--Donnie

Michael Westerfield · **Posted:** Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:01 am

Donnie Barnes wrote:

MikeWhitney wrote:

Denis Budnewski and I were chatting about the VIR 13 today over lunch at the track, and what kinds of cars do well. He pointed out that Bimmerworld's car (White lightning?) has done exceptionally well -- it's an E36 with a 2.8 motor and something absurd like a 28 gallon fuel cell. Car can do 3 hours between pit stops..... Food for thought.

Of course it ain't gonna be doing 2:05 laps either. Oh and it has that darned strut suspension :twisted:

25 gallons is the max size you're allowed, so if they've got 28 then we need to look into that.

They weren't doing near 3 hours, but they were doing a bit over 2. We could go longer in the RSX. Their fast lap time in the race was a 2:15 and probably near a 2:10 in qualifying, I don't remember. But they put a car together that's made it the distance without trouble the last few years, and that's obviously why they've won it. There have been a lot of faster cars, though, and many have been close to going the distance, so I feel like it's just a matter of time before the ante must be upped. I doubt we're going to get ANY car to go the distance ourselves in its first year, so I figure we're at least two years away from having a good shot. Which is why I want to up the ante significantly if I can.

But it doesn't surprise me that two BMW guys were having lunch at the track and telling tall tales about another BMW that's been gettin-it-done.

--Donnie

Any limitations on the amount of fuel line you can run? Any problem getting enough fuel line in the car to hold an extra gallon or two?

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Donnie Barnes wrote:

But it doesn't surprise me that two BMW guys were having lunch at the track and telling tall tales about another BMW that's been gettin-it-done.

--Donnie

I have 5 Hondas, 2 Chryslers, 2 BMWs, and 1 Subaru in my stable right now ... Does that make me more of a Honda guy?

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:26 am

MikeWhitney wrote:

Donnie Barnes wrote:

But it doesn't surprise me that two BMW guys were having lunch at the track and telling tall tales about another BMW that's been gettin-it-done.

I have 5 Hondas, 2 Chryslers, 2 BMWs, and 1 Subaru in my stable right now ... Does that make me more of a Honda guy?

Hey, hey...no need to get defensive. I was just poking at you a little. It's all good.

--Donnie

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:30 am

MikeWhitney wrote:

I have 5 Hondas, 2 Chryslers, 2 BMWs, and 1 Subaru in my stable right now ... Does that make me more of a Honda guy?

No, but it is a sign that you might need help.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:59 am

especially given the "Chryslers" :shock:

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:54 pm

steve remchak wrote:

especially given the "Chryslers" :shock:

I do give him bonus points for being man enough to admit those. *shrug*

--Donnie

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