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Richard your porsche bias is showing. I counted four times in three laps that the porsche cut the vette off, three times the vette dropped a wheel off the track in an effort to stay clear. I'd have punted his ass in the final turn also and if he tried to push me in the wall as he did to JM I'd have twitched the vette to the right and put him in the wall. Protecting your line is one thing, but pushing them off the track is quite another. A good example of what should have been done is the last race at Talladega... the 99 tried to crowd the 88 into the yellow line and was spun out for that maneuver resulting in a spectacular crash. Jan drove a clean race.

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2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

You also missed:
"Bergmeister should be banned from racing"

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In need of car.

IMO Jan seemed to run a very good race. There was some bumping here and there but nothing that is out of the normal. Jorg's last move there that put Jan into the wall was not necessary at all. Jan was clearly inside him and shoving him into the wall is just dirty personally. I would have liked to see an overhead of the incident to see what it looked like from above though.

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2010 Honda Fit Sport
Couple of bicycles

That's OK Bernie, I would say your Corvette bias is showing. Well the funny thing is that while I do have a Porsche bias, I have been rooting for Porsche to loose in GT2 this year. So I would have been happy if Jan had won. However I am going to call them as I see them and I think both drivers contributed to that accident.

Why am I rooting for Porsche to loose? I am part of a group of Porsche fans who believe that Porsche should not be GT racing with the 911. While I like the 911 well enough, I am not a fan of the location of it's engine and the resulting compromises it places on a race car. Many of us would like to see the Cayman (mid engine) in GT racing. However the Porsche marking folks will never let this happen.

Not sure what Talladega race you are referencing. I am assuming it's a NASCAR race. Sorry if I offend the NASCAR fans, but what is happening is we are seeing the NASCARification (not sure if there is such a word) of GT racing. Which is what I think is the problem. Bumping to pass, pushing someone into a wall, or spinning someone on purpose is not what we need. Keep that in NASCAR thank you. Letting drivers get away with those types of antics may make for great entertainment on TV, but it's not racing.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

careful Richard, next thing you know all racing will be as sterile as F1.

the bumping and banging was excessive in this particular race mainly due to the Porsche not yielding the line as he should have.

i'm not suggesting beating on each other, but we all know "Rubbin's Racin".

that finish at Sebring several years back was some of the best racing this series has seen in many years. to have two cars that close after 12 hours is good for the sport. i don't think your boy has ever gotten over that one. i think it bruised his pinky.

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BenchWarmer Motorsports

another one of those damn LeMons heads

just another Chump

we are an Autocross Club Dammit............

Can someone explain to me the concept of "yielding the line as he should have"? It's RACING. It's about WINNING. You yield the line when you're getting lapped, not when you're racing for the lead.

Now, as to what's "fair" in terms of blocking, most rulesets allow "one move" in any straight "out of line" to block. Most sanctioning bodies do NOT include driving to the inside of a corner (ie. a very early apex) as a "move", either, since it's completely up to you if you want to pinch off a corner to keep a car from diving in on you (with the theory there being a smart driver behind you who sees you do that will just setup and exit pass since he'll now have an advantage in speed through said corner).

So multiple moves down a straight to stay in front of a car that can clearly overtake you isn't legit. One move followed by a dive to the inside of the next corner is usually fine. Many bodies will allow more than that one move in the closing laps of a race, but usually not more than two unless the overtaking car has been doing some pushing and not getting away with it. So the officials are human, and when they see both guys doing stuff they shouldn't be and it's the closing laps of a race, they'll usually let it go. And if it's more than they can just let go, they punish both guys equally (the offsetting personal fouls in football, which are useless).

But there's no way you should allow a car you are overtaking to "push you off the track", either. You move to the outside as far as you can, and at that point you let him hit you. You can even slow as necessary to make sure when he hits you that HE spins, and at that point its fine to do what you need to do to both insure the spin AND insure that you drive through it. That's how *I* would treat a driver obviously trying to push me off once I've established a pass on the outside. Give him all the room you can in case it's just a scare tactic, and as soon as you're sure it's not, bye-bye Mr. Dumbass.

Have I done the scare move? Sure. But I wouldn't push someone off. And if I'm doing the scare move, I'm ready for contact in case the guy decides to push me around. *shrug*

Also remember that Porsche guys can't do much pushing around, though, with the front corners. Those damned radiators are easy to screw up with just a little more than a nudge. Everyone else has it good in that regard.


--Donnie

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My Blog

yes but Donnie this is "Gentleman Racing". the Porsche should have yielded to the request by the Corvette.

thanks for weighing in on the subject.

anyone happen to see where the BMWs finished?

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BenchWarmer Motorsports

another one of those damn LeMons heads

just another Chump

we are an Autocross Club Dammit............

Thanks for wading into this Donnie. I rest my case Richard.

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2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

I have not pulled out the the CCR's to review all the rules on passing I watched the video the day after the race. The Porsche was clearly blocking. The rule is, you are allowed one move to block per passing attempt. For example, down the straight I move to your left corner, you move over to block and I make a move further left, you should not move over. Likewise, I move left, you move left and then I go right...you are not suppose to move to the right.

A pass is completed when my rear bumper clears your front bumper.

The position is mine if my front tire is at your door.

When we get into a position of my front tire at your door, the gentleman's agreement is you have half the track, I have mine. Yes, we will let the car drift over center line in an attempt to shake up the other driver. But they are entitled to their half and I have the tire marks on the door to show some are intimidated by the tactic. But you want to make sure you do at least give the other car one and half car width.

A good example was at Summit recently, I was on the outside entering turn 1 and Kevin Louden was diving to my inside. We got into one and I knew he was only at my rear quarter panel. I dove to the apex and cut him off. He had no real choice but to lift since he did not have position on me. In all honesty (and I told him this after the race), I did not expect him to lift and was bracing for impact and had started to get ready to dial in some steering to control the car. He told me afterwards, he was shocked I would pull the cut move off...I would not have done it before.

My take on the video, the Porsche was blocking. When the Corvette did get the run, the Porsche pinched the Corvette into the wall. That was pretty unsportsmanlike. But the final decision is up to the race steward. I watched the video and thought if someone did that to me at the kink on the front straight of VIR, I would be pissed.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Maybe you should explain it again as I pretty much agree with what Donnie has said. So either we are on the same page, or I have misunderstood your position. My understanding is you pretty much said it's OK to punt the guy in front of you if he makes it very hard to get around him.

I may get this all wrong, but in short I think Donnie is saying...

* If you are fighting for position there is not such thing as giving in to the guy behind you as long as you follow accepted rules.
* Blocking is allowed as long as you follow specific rules.
* Get position on the other guy and let him turn into you vs. you hitting him.

So to take Donnie's strategy and apply it to that race...

Jan in the Corvette was clearly much better under braking than Jorg in the Porsche. Jan should have run as close to Jorg through turn 1, brake as late as he can and attempt to pass on the outside of turn 2 (which he did a few time). As he exits turn 2 and is on the inside heading into turn 3, he should hold his line and let the Porsche turn into him and let the Porsche spin. What happened instead is that as the Porsche tracked out of turn 2 and the Corvette would brake or go two wheels off to avoid collision.

I think it's hard to pull off an outside pass there, but I like Donnie's solution vs. the bump to get the Porsche loose on the last turn.

And to be clear, I am not saying that Jorg should have squeezed Jan into the wall. I don't know if that counts as "one move" or not. It might because as he exited the turn Jorg headed straight for the wall knowing that Jan was beside him. It happens all of the time if you watch much professional road racing. It usually just doesn't happen on last lap on a track in which there is no run off. So Jan's options was....

1. Lift
2. Hope that Jorg gives in

Which is putting a lot of faith in the actions of a driver who already has blocked you pretty heavy for a few laps.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

I read Donnie's comment to mean that Magnussen should've punted the porsche.

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In need of car.

I have already put enough words into Donnie's mouth for this thread. Where do you see that Donnie said Jan should have punted Jorg?

To be clear, my definition of "punt" is to initiate contact (meaning I drive into you) and cause the other driver to go off track and/or loose position. Letting someone turn into you is something totally different.

You really can tell that the racing season is over when we start to argue about stuff like this. How many pages is this thread going to go?

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

4.5

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BenchWarmer Motorsports

another one of those damn LeMons heads

just another Chump

we are an Autocross Club Dammit............

We'll get to about 8 pages before a porsche fan comes along and knocks it off track. Dirty drivers, the whole bunch of 'em.

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In need of car.

will probably start talking about watches or something.

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Marty Howard
2011 NASA SE Factory Five Challenge Champion
Track Events Logistics Coordinator - TZC/THSCC
2007 Factory Five Challenge Car.
http://www.mh-motorsports.com