Bergmeister and Magnussen at Laguna..who was at fault?

Marty Howard · **Posted:** Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:07 pm

Just caught up on the Laguna race from last week. Watching the last laps with Bergmeister and Magnussen going at it.

I saw both drivers initiate contact at some point.

For those who saw it, what do you think?

I tell you I think Bergmeister drew first blood pushing the vette off track in turn one 4 laps before the finish.

OH, and the impact of the Porsche was at the rear passenger quarter panel of the vette.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:59 pm

Of your three options, I guess "rubbin' is racing" fits the best, but I really don't agree with that either, but that is what I voted for. Here is a copy of a post I made on another forum. This was prior to them handing out penalties...

Quote:

Honestly, by looking at just that one camera angle of the finish line accident it’s hard to tell and any opinion is just speculation. Obviously they both were involved in the fact that both cars were in the positions they were in when Jan spun. Jorg was squeezing Jan and neither Jan nor Jorg was going to give up. It’s hard to say how the spun happened without more info. More speculation on my part is that I don’t think that Jorg turned left into Jan’s rear, but rather that Jan came across left to right into Jorg. I think Jan may have kissed the wall and rebounded or wiggled back into Jorg accidentally. I also think that Jorg was very lucky to not get caught up in the accident.

I think there are two main aggravating factors in this. First Jan was pushing the envelope with respect to aggressive driving. The bump in the last corner was obviously meant to get Jorg loose. Jan was faster, but in my opinion the last turn bump is not how you should win a race. Second Jorg has already been burnt by a last lap “bump and pass” scenario in which there was no punishment and he came out the looser in that example. The saying “Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me” comes to mind.

So I have mixed feelings about this. Everyone wants better racing and if the final bumps at the flag had not resulted in an accident there would have been some grumblings, but in general the last lap would have been held up as another example of “close and great racing” and “what the sport should be these days”. It makes for good drama but not clean racing between gentlemen.

Personally I hate to stifle passionate racing. Maybe Jan should deserve a penalty for the last turn bump. If it can be shown that Jorg spun Jan then maybe he should also be penalized. They could let the results stand as is, but hand out grid position penalties next year. However precedents have been set by the officials with regards to this type of rough driving, so I picked the “No one was at fault it’s a racing incident” option.

Additional "objective" thoughts after the fact...

* They gave out probation for both drivers which I think was needed, but it was the easy way out for IMSA.
* It's hard for people to see this without some type of getting involved. Porsche fans generally blame the Corvette driver. Corvette fans generally blame the Porsche driver.
* I blame racing stewards (this is not just a comment on IMSA) who allow first and last lap antics with little or no punishment. So they basically give the signal to drivers that nearly anything goes. Particular on the last lap when it's hard to hand out penalties. Even in this case the result stands and no real punishment other than "be nice next time" was handed out. I would have been harder on both of them.

My "subjective" thoughts (as a Porsche fan)

* Word is that the Corvette had a string of collisions through the entire race as he pushed other cars around physically. What goes around comes around.
* Not sure if everyone understands my comment above about Jorg being previously burnt by last lap "bump and pass". That is in reference to the 2007 Sebring race in which Jorg was bumped and then pushed into the wall. He let off to avoid the crash and the other guy won with no penalty.
* Passing on the outside of turn 1 is not really an option. If the Corvette went off track on turn 1 it's Jan's own fault for trying that pass.
* In my book you can never justify using the chrome horn on the last lap of the last turn as a way to win a race no matter how much faster you may be. If you want to pass, then pass cleanly.
* I don't think the final contact was due to the Porsche hitting the Corvette, but rather the Corvette hitting the Porsche. Even then I don't think the contact was on purpose at that point. But without better video and/or data evidence we can't really know.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:10 pm

Here is a video of the last few laps if anyone didn't see the race...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3y0tbdpcFc

It includes the illegal pass on the pit exit that was made by Jan (which he had to give the position back)

BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

I didn't vote, but thanks for posting that video, that was awesome.

I kind of agree with Richard though.

Jason Mauldin · **Posted:** Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:26 pm

Marty, I think it was probably the best racing I've ever seen up until the point that the porsche guy punted the vette driver into the wall.

Richard Casto wrote:

Of your three options, I guess "rubbin' is racing" fits the best, but I really don't agree with that either, but that is what I voted for. Here is a copy of a post I made on another forum. This was prior to them handing out penalties...

Quote:

Honestly, by looking at just that one camera angle of the finish line accident it’s hard to tell and any opinion is just speculation. Obviously they both were involved in the fact that both cars were in the positions they were in when Jan spun. Jorg was squeezing Jan and neither Jan nor Jorg was going to give up. It’s hard to say how the spun happened without more info. More speculation on my part is that I don’t think that Jorg turned left into Jan’s rear, but rather that Jan came across left to right into Jorg. I think Jan may have kissed the wall and rebounded or wiggled back into Jorg accidentally. I also think that Jorg was very lucky to not get caught up in the accident.

I think there are two main aggravating factors in this. First Jan was pushing the envelope with respect to aggressive driving. The bump in the last corner was obviously meant to get Jorg loose. Jan was faster, but in my opinion the last turn bump is not how you should win a race. Second Jorg has already been burnt by a last lap “bump and pass” scenario in which there was no punishment and he came out the looser in that example. The saying “Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me” comes to mind.

So I have mixed feelings about this. Everyone wants better racing and if the final bumps at the flag had not resulted in an accident there would have been some grumblings, but in general the last lap would have been held up as another example of “close and great racing” and “what the sport should be these days”. It makes for good drama but not clean racing between gentlemen.

My "subjective" thoughts (as a Porsche fan)

* Not sure if everyone understands my comment above about Jorg being previously burnt by last lap "bump and pass". That is in reference to the 2007 Sebring race in which Jorg was bumped and then pushed into the wall. He let off to avoid the crash and the other guy won with no penalty.

Sounds to me like he's better at holding up traffic then he is at driving fast. Perhaps the dude should retire and stop being a roadblock.

Quote:

* I don't think the final contact was due to the Porsche hitting the Corvette, but rather the Corvette hitting the Porsche. Even then I don't think the contact was on purpose at that point. But without better video and/or data evidence we can't really know

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrLKbZcL3TA

Go to 1:47. The porsche clearly pushes the back of the vette.

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:57 pm

I don't have an opinion that matters, but that "outside" pass was turn 2, not turn 1. Turn 1 at Laguna is the bend in the front straight.

I can't stand to watch racing there. Makes me miss that track too much and it's just so damned far away. That place is so awesome to race.

--Donnie

steve remchak · **Posted:** Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:23 pm

so was Jorg pissing and moaning like he did when he lost at Sebring after this one?

seems to me the Porsche was blocking for quite a few of the last laps. isn't there some kind of rule about that also? it also seems to me that the Porsche forced the Corvette off the track several times before finally putting Jan into the wall. how about the brake check by the Porsche?

i agree Richard, chrome horn on the last lap sucks. i doubt Jan will ever wait that long if the opportunity presents itself again.

at least there is still one series on TV that shows real racing.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:25 pm

Jason Mauldin wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrLKbZcL3TA

Go to 1:47. The porsche clearly pushes the back of the vette.

Right or wrong Jorg is pushing Jan toward the wall. Right or wrong Jan could have backed off as he was clearly running out of room. Right or wrong Jorg could have left Jan more room.

Regardless of how they got to that point I don't see the Porsche (Jorg) pushing into the back of the Corvette (Jan). What I see is Jan's car bump into Jorg's car as he is passing. Jan moves slightly left and Jorg moves slightly right after that first contact. Jan then comes back right (turning away from wall to avoid it? Wiggles due to lack of traction that far off the racing line? Kisses the wall and rebounds? Who knows why) and then hits Jorg a second time which then spins him. The best I can tell is that the first impact is as they are even or with Jan being slightly behind and the second is with Jan being slightly ahead which causes the spin. If anything, I see Jorg's car move to the right after the first bump and not move back left prior to the second. I am amazed that Jorg didn't crash as well. If I am to continue to speculate Jorg may have lifted slightly between the first and second bump (they happen very close together) and this may have allowed Jan to pull ahead enough so that when they hit again it both spun Jan and allowed Jorg to not get caught up in the spin as Jorg was already slowing down.

Bottom line is that I think my earlier point still stands that there is no way there can be a definitive answer from that one camera shot. Even in slow motion people will disagree. So we will have to agree to disagree.

I never did explain why I felt they both should be punished. Jan should be punished for the bump on the last turn to loosen up Jorg as that is not how you pass for position even if the car in front of you is driving defensively and is slower than you. Jorg should be punished for squeezing Jan into the wall as he should have left more room. It has been reported that there was no impact marks on the wall by the Corvette, so the impact was between the two cars and was a racing incident IMHO.

Jason Mauldin · **Posted:** Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:40 pm

Richard, go back and focus on the front of the porsche right at the time that I gave you. I don't know how you can miss the front of the porsche pushing hard left right before he hits his brakes to stay out of the way of the vette that he just caused to spin into the wall.

IMO, everything before the push that caused the spin was fair racing*. The porsche should've allowed the legitimate pass to be completed.

*If you consider 10 minutes of "blocking" fair racing.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:45 pm

steve remchak wrote:

so was Jorg pissing and moaning like he did when he lost at Sebring after this one?

seems to me the Porsche was blocking for quite a few of the last laps. isn't there some kind of rule about that also? it also seems to me that the Porsche forced the Corvette off the track several times before finally putting Jan into the wall. how about the brake check by the Porsche?

i agree Richard, chrome horn on the last lap sucks. i doubt Jan will ever wait that long if the opportunity presents itself again.

at least there is still one series on TV that shows real racing.

I think Jorg was keeping his mouth shut and smiling in private.

Regarding blocking... Someone like Donnie or Jim P. can comment on this better than myself. My non-racer opinion is that the Corvette was faster in a few places on the track than the Porsche and the Porsche maybe faster than the Corvette in a few. But overall the Corvette was faster than the Porsche at that moment in the race and appeared to be much better under braking than the Porsche. Clearly somehow the Porsche was in the lead with just a few laps left so it's not like he was out there ruining the Corvettes day, but was a quick car. Sometimes to prevent leaving the door open for a pass you have to turn lower lap times. So doing this results in the guy behind being able to close up on you, but you are taking away the easy places to pass by using slightly different line, etc. If you are racing for position, I think it is up to the passing car to make the pass. Even if the passing car is faster. There is no rule that says the faster car has the right of way.

Regarding forcing a car off the track, again, I would love to hear Donnie's or Jim's comments, but my opinion is that trying to complete a pass on the outside of a turn and you are not ahead of the car you are passing doesn't give you the right to that part of the track. If you take a normal apex on turn 2 (sorry you were right Donnie, the hairpin is turn 2 and not 1) you track out to the right. So Jan was trying hard to make that pass work, but I think that is going to fail 9 out of 10 times and each failure is going to result in wheels off. Other than turn 2, I didn't see the Corvette go off course.

This same scenario happened in the most recent F1 race in which someone decided to pass a slower car on the outside. The leading car tracked out and the passing car had nowhere to go but into the grass and if I remember correctly the passing car crashed out. The announcers were wondering why he would try that as there was no chance at pulling that off.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:58 pm

Jason Mauldin wrote:

Richard, go back and focus on the front of the porsche right at the time that I gave you. I don't know how you can miss the front of the porsche pushing hard left right before he hits his brakes to stay out of the way of the vette that he just caused to spin into the wall.

IMO, everything before the push that caused the spin was fair racing*. The porsche should've allowed the legitimate pass to be completed.

*If you consider 10 minutes of "blocking" fair racing.

No you are right in that he does turn left a bit. But I think that is where both react from the initial hit. Jan rebounds a bit left and Jorg rebounds a bit right. Both cars then react to the impact which has Jan come back right and Jorg back left. I think what you are talking about is Jorg's part in recovering from the first hit. I think that Jan either had more speed than Jorg, or Jorg lifted so that the second impact spun Jan. Again, I am sure we are going to disagree on the cause of the accident.

Regarding 10 minutes of blocking? I again see it differently. I see them being pretty equal on most of the track an the Porsche driving defensively in a few places that he is weak. Clearly over a single lap the Corvette was faster at that point in the race. It was a six hour race! Maybe they should have found a way to pass earlier vs. trying to force the issue on the last lap!

Also, I think the Porsche was hoping that he would not have to run that last lap. If he drove just fast enough to hold off the Corvette but slow enough to let the P1 cars finish ahead of them, then they wouldn't have to do that last lap. But as it turns out, they (the lead GT2 cars) passed the start/finish just head of the P1 cars. The P1 cars took the checker flag, but the GT2 cars had to complete one more lap.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:01 pm

if this were NASCRAP Richard there would be no discussion. and the Porsche would have been in the wall about two laps before the finish.

i will admit i was impressed with Jorg's use of slower traffic to block the Corvette. and for that matter the faster traffic also.

but clearly the Porsche was blocking aggressively. the Corvette may not have ever reached the "magic point" on the Porsche's door but it appears it was mighty close several times.

i hope no one was injured in the process as it was exciting to watch.

Jason Mauldin · **Posted:** Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:07 pm

Richard, I believe what happened is that the Porsche driver used up his tires trying to stay ahead of the superior Vette, so by the end of the race he was on much slower tires and had to resort to blocking and punting to take the win.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:15 pm

Jason Mauldin wrote:

Richard, I believe what happened is that the Porsche driver used up his tires trying to stay ahead of the superior Vette, so by the end of the race he was on much slower tires and had to resort to blocking and punting to take the win.

and pinch to the inside when all else fails. :word:

Marty Howard · **Posted:** Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:38 am

just noticed my fourth option did not make it into the poll.

It was

"Both Drivers were at fault"

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Bergmeister and Magnussen at Laguna..who was at fault?

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