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I have completely worn myself out on this topic. So I am going to stick to my guns this time and make this my last post about the “off topic” topic. I have five days off from work, I have out of town guests and I am going to try to relax. Why do I need to relax? Because this thread has derailed into me apparently being signed up to fight a battle I don’t support. This started out with Graham poking fun at me about the pushrod engine in the GT2 Corvette. I initially tried to focus on race engines, but somehow this has bled over into a battle over road car engines which can (and has in this thread) becoming a religious discussion. My willingness to be involved in religious discussions is generally pretty small.

I am also sad that Jason didn't even comment about the photo of his clone up above.



I am also not saying that the current Corvette engine is not light, or that a pushrod engine can’t be light. One of the advantages is that they can be light due to the design being simpler and having fewer parts. The current Corvette road car engine is VERY light for the power it puts out. No argument from me. My point above is that I don’t think that “lighter and lower” were the main reasons they picked a pushrod engine for the Corvette road car. I am sure it was part of the equation, but not the main factor. Once it was picked I am sure they spent time and money on how to make it light and low.

But what I am really talking about is racing engines in which you don’t start with a given HP and then figure out what design gives you the lightest engine. You typically start with a given displacement (and sometimes configuration such as “V8”) and go from there. My point is that if you are building a bespoke racing engine, NOBODY builds a pushrod engine unless they are forced to do so by the rules. Someone please show me an example otherwise?


In a racing engine? Material choice to reduce weight and angle between cylinders for center of gravity.


The three you list are all “cost” (which was one of the two reasons I listed.) I also didn’t say my list was in priority order. Cost may be the #1 factor. If in the future the Corvette happened to be the very last product that used a pushrod engine at GM, then the “cost” factor would be working against them. I didn’t say it at the time, but that is why I think that eventually the Corvette will get an OHC engine. I may be 10, 20 or 30 years from now, but the pushrod engine will just not be the right engine for the car at some point. Time will tell if I am right or wrong. Feel free to look me up in 30 years and tell me I am wrong.

To continue with the “Historic continuity of identifying feature” factor, I would point to the material used for the body as well as the transverse spring used in the rear suspension (not 100% sure that is still used) would fall into that category as well. Cost and plain old engineering decisions factor in as well. I think there are good reasons for the body material choice, probably less good reasons for the spring on the rear, but I believe the that these two items are features of the car that are identifiable as what makes a Corvette a Corvette. The Marketing, Design and Engineering teams keep those features alive from one generation to the next.

We will just have to agree to disagree on why GM makes design decisions. It is just an opinion on my part and I could be wrong. But it’s still my opinion. And I am really sorry that this ended up as being so focused on the Corvette road car. It is a great car and GM is clearly doing something right with it. I would love to have one.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
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2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Oh don't blame this all on me Richard. You setup that whole thing with me throwing in the pushrod crack. I admit I was poking fun. Just for a reminder the OHC engine wasn't designed yesterday.

But my initial post I still stand by too! Why do we bother having USA F1 team with NO Americans. Other than Anderson, and his roots come from NASCAR (those pushrod thingies...) Forget that. I wouldn't donate a nickel for their survival. And having Peter Windsor, he is just annoying. However, that said, I doubt they'll survive with the Elitist Euros anyway. They just won't fit. But good luck.

The reason GM likes building the V8 with those p-things in the valve train is cost and simplicity. They have been able to extract the power needed in a reliable manner using a lot of existing technology. For street cars that they throw out warranties on. Especially now offering things like 100K mile warranties. Those motors are to their advantage. There are other things in those motors that are high tech that allowed them to squeeze out that horsepower. Read up on the LS1 and LS6 design and then the LS7. They did do some cool stuff.

The LT5 was considered cool as all get up and a great combined design between GM and Lotus. The motor was written off by GM management, and bean counters, as way too exotic. They sold the C4 for $35K and the ZR1 with LT5 was a $35K add-on package... $70K for that car. Mostly because of that LT5 motor. Just made no business sense. From a power perspective. Oh yeah. The car put 375hp in 1990. The 91-95 version had 400hp. It was so under rated and detuned. Lotus told GM they could bump another 100hp easily at little cost. Except emissions....

Oh and yes they use transverse leafs on front and rear, and have for many years. Since the C5 they are now corner adjustable so the car can be corner weighted and ride height set, easily. They are made of a very high tech composite (not dinosaur dung).

As for the biggest historical thing on the Vette. 4 tail lights and pop-up head lights. The C6 was considered blasphemy going to the recessed headlights they now use. It goes completely against Corvette history. They got the most crap for that change alone.

The fact you really get behind F1. That's fine. More power too you. I really used to like watching it. I find it less interesting these days. Enjoy your 5 days off Richard. I promise not to pollute your F1 thread any more or say the P-word.

Graham

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Well, he is an American. Just not a North American. And to be frank, I really think that is part of why he was picked.

Seriously did you read my comments early on about the FIA superlicense? That is a real problem. USF1 really don't have many options right now. Maybe once they get on the grid and show at least some promise they might be able to pull a US driver away from their existing drive, but for now it's either gonna be someone new (but with something like GP2 experience) who wants to be in F1, or an existing F1 driver who has lost his drive.

And no I don't blame you for the trainwreck this thread has become.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Graham only counts US Citizens as "Americans" Canadians, Latin Americans, and South Americans are not real Americans.

Since I was on Graham's side on the V8 thing, thought I would be equal opportunity

USF1’s website has been nothing more than a “contacts” page for quite awhile, but they re-launched the site shortly before Christmas. In addition to have some real content, have also posted three different videos on YouTube.

http://www.usgpe.com

http://www.youtube.com/usf1team

One of the three videos shows that the tub really exists. The team went "dark" for awhile and there was much speculation as to what was going on. Some said they are going to sell their entry to Sauber, others that they are so far behind they are going to buy the design of the 2010 Toyota car now that Toyota has left. The video is good news as it shows they are at least making progress.

They have still yet to name drivers. I think they still have the problem of finding…

#1 A young gun US driver that can obtain an FIA Superlicense
#2 An established US driver that is willing leave where they are today (NASCAR, IRL, retirement) but is also willing to drive at the back of the pack in F1.
#3 A paying driver who brings along sponsorship money.
#4 An established F1 driver that they can both afford and is willing to drive at the back of the pack in F1.

As best as I can tell nobody fits into #1. Jonathan Summerton is the closest fit as he is a US driver and did well in A1GP, but is apparently he is unable to get a Superlicense (2011 might be different). Anybody who is doing well in NASCAR or IRL seems to NOT want to give up a for sure drive in 2010 in their existing series to experiment with a startup F1 team. Even then, I am guessing that while a good IRL driver may qualify for an FIA Superlicense, I doubt they would give a NASCAR driver an FIA Superlicense. So that kills most options with #2. The best option is for someone to come out of retirement (such as Jacque Villeneuve). I think Lopez fits option #3 assuming he works out the sponsorship money issue. While he is not a US citizen it does help somewhat that Lopez is from the “Americas”. There is rumors that Alex Wurz is being considered and he fits option #4. The issue with Wurz is that he apparently is committed to driving in the European LMS series for Peugeot and It think there is a schedule conflict with that series and the Canadian GP. Peugeot may also not want him racing in F1 while under contract with them. Alex is supposed to be a good development driver and the team really needs a driver who has F1 experience that can help develop the car.

Next steps for the team will most likely be FIA crash tests of the tub, nose and probably the rear of the car. I had heard at one point that those may be taking place late December/early January. First 2010 FIA F1 test date is 2/1 at Valencia in Spain. That is just a bit more than 30 days from now. It will be interesting to see if USF1 are at that test.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

It appears that unless a miracle happens the team is going to crash and burn within days. Short version is that they just didn't get the job done quickly enough and are out of money. It will be a real shame if it doesn't work out.

Best case scenario is that the car is in UK for crash testing this week and if that goes OK they might do some minimal testing somewhere in the US before the ship off to Bahrain.

Worst case they have no money at all, car is not in UK and they are not making payroll. Major investor Chad Hurley is looking to take his money elsewhere. Their one driver may be looking to take his sponsorship money elsewhere. The only other place at this point would be to rescue the Campos team which is probably in almost as bad as shape as USF1.

There has been no news out of USF1 in many days and lots of rumors flying around. Expect it to be settled one way or another within a few days.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

This was pre-ordained. Bernie was undermining them every chance he got since he is getting paid by another company who needs someone to drop out so they can get in. He does not want to bring F1 back to the US as there is no one here willing to put up the ginormous bribe money to host a race, and all he cares about is money. It is hard to imagine though going through all this time and money just to shut down, but it didn't look good when they missed the testing.

Bummer. Looks like they won't have a spot for 2011 either.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/04/sport ... sf1&st=cse

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No, you're a towel!

Wonder if they'll have a public auction?


--Donnie

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