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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:01 pm 
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steve remchak wrote:
it may be that Reich is simply trying to say the money should go to HUB certified contractors in a greater proportion than what is the accepted norm today.


Look at Reich's involvement as the Labor Secretary under Clinton, and ask yourself if we're really surprised by this stance.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:24 pm 
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Richard Casto wrote:

I am of the opinion that China is the largest Laissez-faire/Invisible Hand/Capitalist economy in the world right now. However I don’t think many will agree with me. They pretty much have zero regulation or if there is regulation it’s not enforced, so it’s very much “Invisible Hand”.


I don't know that much about the Chinese systems, but I've often heard of the government pumping lots of money into their factories. I believe they(the Chinese government) recognized the world power potential that having a large manufacturing base provides you, and have aggressively went after manufacturing work.

According to this article, they've also had a bit of control over their banking system: http://www.newsweek.com/id/178029

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:03 pm 
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Jason Mauldin wrote:
Richard Casto wrote:
I am of the opinion that China is the largest Laissez-faire/Invisible Hand/Capitalist economy in the world right now. However I don’t think many will agree with me. They pretty much have zero regulation or if there is regulation it’s not enforced, so it’s very much “Invisible Hand”.


I don't know that much about the Chinese systems, but I've often heard of the government pumping lots of money into their factories. I believe they(the Chinese government) recognized the world power potential that having a large manufacturing base provides you, and have aggressively went after manufacturing work.

According to this article, they've also had a bit of control over their banking system: http://www.newsweek.com/id/178029


Thats an interesting article. I would say that those in power see the benefit of keeping their investments safe, so they want a stable banking system.

I could be way off base with my theories regarding China right now, but it's clear to me that their "government" is not democratic, but rather power sharing system amongst the powerful elite. So if the government is supporting industry monetarily, I would argue it’s the rich and powerful investing in their future (more Capitalism).

I view the Chinese leadership to be much in the mold of our own late 19th and early 20th century industrialist/robber barons such as Carnegie and Rockefeller. They pretty much acted as feudal lords and held great control over the federal government. The US eventually matured and with the help of anti-monopoly actions, these types of figures don't hold the same level of control as they did in the past. There was good and bad with that era in our history. Today the US is a bit more of “who can shout the loudest” or “mob rules” mentality these days. Time will tell what path China follows.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:51 pm 
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Richard Casto wrote:

I could be way off base with my theories regarding China right now, but it's clear to me that their "government" is not democratic, but rather power sharing system amongst the powerful elite. So if the government is supporting industry monetarily, I would argue it’s the rich and powerful investing in their future (more Capitalism).

I view the Chinese leadership to be much in the mold of our own late 19th and early 20th century industrialist/robber barons such as Carnegie and Rockefeller. They pretty much acted as feudal lords and held great control over the federal government. The US eventually matured and with the help of anti-monopoly actions, these types of figures don't hold the same level of control as they did in the past. There was good and bad with that era in our history. Today the US is a bit more of “who can shout the loudest” or “mob rules” mentality these days. Time will tell what path China follows.


I think China may be operating a bit different than you may think. There is a very gentle but HEAVY hand pushing industry in the direction of maximizing China's world power.

Highly recommended book about China's soft power -- "Charm Offensive". US politicians could learn a thing or two from this. Richard, if you're interested, I read it a while ago and it's just sitting on my bookshelf now.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:09 pm 
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Hold on a minute, did China sign the Kyoto Protocol? We're discussing green things after all ...

Waiting for people to appreciate the hypocrisy...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:58 pm 
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I made the mistake of opening the link to the draft of the bill that Ryan provided. 647 pages of concise, easily understood legislation... I'd be a lot happier if it were broken down into, say, a few dozen bills authorizing related expenditures. Then the Congress can actually work through and vote on the merits of the expenditures at a more granular level.

I doubt that any of our legislators have a satisfactory understanding of what they are voting on in this beast, and worry that they're basing their decisions (as does the public) on simplistic slogans like "vote for green initiatives" which promote funding for a small subset of the funds involved. I guess the trick is to give everybody something to cheer about, then they'll forget that they're accepting many things they oppose. I think it's called politics.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:29 am 
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I have to admit that when I checked the forum tonight, I initially read this thread's title as "Pass the Green: Economic Recovery Plan".
;-)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:30 pm 
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Wes Eargle wrote:
Hold on a minute, did China sign the Kyoto Protocol? We're discussing green things after all ...

Waiting for people to appreciate the hypocrisy...

Since the countries that did sign the Kyoto Protocol haven't been able to follow through and comply with it, I consider the Protocol itself the height of hypocrisy. :D

Got to give them marks for enthusiasm, though...

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 Post subject: academic updates
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:40 pm 
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as someone who was in academia not too long ago. schools in this country are pathetic. i would vote for this becuase of the state of public schools. we have money, that is great. it really its. But our schools are pathetic.

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 Post subject: sun tzu again
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:55 pm 
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people are the heart and soul of a country.

food is the heaven of the people.

those who rule over others will do well to know this, and be sparing and use them accordingly.

i am allll for main street. not wall street.

letting the major corporations, who gobble up money faster than a hungry hog at feeding time.. need to know that there are other folks out there as well. marx and sun tzu agree on one thing..

people are the heart and soul of a country
food is the heaven of the people.

- ignore this at your own risk.

look at the french.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:25 am 
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If any of y'all are fans (or at least supporters) of Texas oilman and new energy advocate T. Boone Pickens, he's calling for support for the stimulus package as well:
T. Boone Pickens wrote:
The U.S. House of Representatives is getting ready to vote on the stimulus package which includes a good deal of what we have been asking for – especially in the areas of wind and energy efficiency. More work is needed on the natural gas side, but this is a good start and we should be supportive. Among the items in the Pickens Plan which are in the stimulus package are:
  • $32 billion to transform the nation’s energy transmission, distribution, and production systems by allowing for a smarter and better grid and focusing investment in renewable technology.
  • $16 billion to repair public housing and make key energy efficiency retrofits.
  • $6 billion to weatherize modest-income homes.
    Tax incentives for the installation of natural gas vehicle home fueling systems and the building of an alternative fuels fueling infrastructure.
  • $80 billion loan guarantee program for renewable energy production.
    Three year extension of the Production Tax Credit (PTC) and an elective 30% Investment Tax Credit (ITC).
I know there are parts of the stimulus package you won’t agree with. That’s OK. It’s important we focus on what we’re trying to get in, not the parts we don’t want some other guy to get.

I need you to call your Member of Congress today and tell them that while the stimulus package isn’t perfect, it has parts which are important to those of us who are dedicated to reducing our dependence on foreign oil.

Click here to join your District Group and to find out how to contact your Member of Congress about this legislation.

-Boone

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:23 am 
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Exactly. T. Boone has been positioning himself to be at the forefront of the money trough for months now (assuming you've been following him). :wink: He's a smart man who likes to make a ton of money.


I tell ya, I'm just a simpleton. However, some of the total junk that is coming out of Congress/Fed is something I truly think very few people in our country grasp nor even care about spending the time necessary for them to grasp it.

One example...the new "systemic risk identifier" plan being slapped together. Grand idea is to "identify" all the institutions that pose a "systemic risk" to our economy and have a plan on "how to deal with them" in times of crisis. Wonderful idea (for those who don't think/know much about how markets work) that you can sell to the voting public with ease. All the congressman and fed officials can pat themselves on the back, hand out pens when the bill is signed, etc.

The problem is that (assuming we have a free market and not a socialist system, sadly I'm serious about that comment Mr. Putin) as soon as you identify the "too big to fail companies/institutions", you create one massive moral hazard. Just like the GSE's. There was always the implicit assumption that that GSEs would be backed by the US Gov (and nobody ever thought it would come to pass, but it was there and affected every risk the GSEs priced in their past). So, given enough time for that mispriced risk to work and....PRESTO! They implode and the US Gov stands up and back them! All the nasty decisions that created the outcome of Freddie/Fannie were implicitly backed by the full faith and credit of the US Government (taxpayer). (btw, there's an interesting story of why the Feds backed GSE preferred stock which they were going to let it fail like the common -- foreign central banks turned out to be holding a TON of GSE preferred stock, so we, the American taxpayer, backed the preferred stock too).

So here's the deal -- Once these companies are identified, the free market will instantly reprice risk associated with them. If we say they are too big to fail, the free market will ensure that the business they conduct is anything but free. Just like how Fannie/Freddie paper was treated in the market for many years. The decisions that these companies make from that point on will be tainted by how they are being received by the market. They will be able to do many things (i.e. much riskier things) than a free market would normally allow.

It's kind of amazing that we're looking to create, on an even bigger scale, a setup similar to what help bring down the curtain to begin with.

Like I said earlier, when big financial decisions are being forced on humans, the majority of the time they choose the wrong path. Why? Because human nature is to, at all costs, mitigate short term pain. Once you decide to do that, you create internal, psychological, based justifications to support your desired outcome. Everybody wants to "feel good", and we (humans) are usually pretty good at fooling ourselves.

Sometimes the BEST thing to do is absolutely nothing. Perhaps the biggest "secret" since essentially nobody will accept it. Listen to some of the "elected officials": 'voters demand that we DO something!'. It's sort of like one of those transitions at super high speed on a track where you have a brief moment when the exact thing to do is NOTHING. You have the car perfectly balanced, and your job is to sit tight and just wait with the inputs you currently have to work.

We're in one of those transitions right now as a country and, supposedly, "voters" are demanding that we DO something. The hope is the outcome is different than it would be in that track scenario if we forced the driver to DO something rather than let the system work.

Hence one of things they are going to do is take essentially ALL of the bad decisions that in many cases the government either encouraged or forced (i.e. community development subprime loan requirements) on the system, aggregate them all, and make you and me responsible for the future of those decisions (this "bad bank" thing). Actually, it will be most of our children who will shoulder this responsibility going forward. Because "we" can't handle short term pain, "we" will create one of the biggest moral hazards in the history of our country while at the same time forcing every citizen of this country to accept blame and pay for the decisions of a few.

The sad part to me is that nobody really cares. They listen to sound bites, they listen to some congressman spout off about how they are "doing something" and they go back to their daily lives happy Congress is "looking out for them."

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:29 am 
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well Chuck, you are on the money i suppose. i vote, but other than that i don't really get involved. i vehemently disagree with a large number of fundemental beliefs held by most Republicans but i was on the losing side for two terms in a row.

i know your stance does not neccesarily follow a party line. but a large part of the problem with our goverment IMO is the partisan behavior of our legislators. the fringe groups have gotten wise and are very vocal and our elected officials bow to the loudest squeaky wheel. i am nearly 50 years old and the term "Evangelical Christian" was never part of any conversation i had heard prior to the 2000 election. with the exception of any mention of Jessica Hahn, but i digress.

the previous administration was more concerned with regulating the peoples minds and bodies and didn't give a rats ass who stole what or screwed who. ( unless there was actual screwing going on) i mean come on; Enron, Haliburton, Iraq all turned a blind eye by the voters in 2004.

i look at my generation and i am saddened. the 60's generation brought about some changes and i should have been the recipient of some of the benefit. but i got screwed over in November of 1963, again in 1968.

by the time i was 25 i was making the same salary as my father retired at a few years earlier and yet inflation had risen so much that a car was nearly unaffordable and buying a house was unthinkable.

and now, just as i am able to squirrel away some acorns and retirement appears to be a viable option five years of savings vaporizes, my house ain't worth what i paid for it and the public sector has stopped renovating its aging and worn out buildings.

i look at the going rate paid to sub-contractors and cringe, carpet installers are paid the same per yard rate as they were 25 years ago. yet everthing else has shot up 400%. there is no justice in the world for the working man. and as such they can't throw money at some fringe group to get their voices heard.

i too fear for the future my child will inherit, but i am also pissed at the bastards that forced the economic mess upon my generation. i suppose it is the way it always has been and always will be.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:33 am 
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steve remchak wrote:
i suppose it is the way it always has been and always will be.


Pretty much. Have you ever seen the movie Mr. Smith goes to Washington? It was made in 1939, and when you watch it, it looks just like Congress still is today (actually they are much worse now) :cry: . Jimmy Stewart was great in it by the way.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:08 pm 
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Chuck Branscomb wrote:
Pretty much. Have you ever seen the movie Mr. Smith goes to Washington? It was made in 1939, and when you watch it, it looks just like Congress still is today (actually they are much worse now) :cry: . Jimmy Stewart was great in it by the way.


Every American should be REQUIRED to watch that movie. It's awesome. I still want to find Willet Crick.

And T. Boone? Please. Sometimes the guy has some good ideas and good things to say, but mostly he's in it for T. Boone. Whatever will make him dough. It's a shame, too, because he's got enough dough that if he'd just give up on the making more part and be a leader, people would listen. His ideas are that good, but it's hard to trust him when he's so often putting himself in the front of the trough line with them. Argh.


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