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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:03 pm 
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Kevin Allen wrote:
Does anybody really know? Or do we basically just have to try something and see if it works, then try the next thing?

No one really knows. There are lots of knowledgeable experts around, but they don't all agree, and tend to subscribe to 1 of several philosophies. A popular one (and the one Obama is going with) is the "throw lots of money at it" philosophy. I hope it works out, because it damn sure is a lot of debt which will be hobbling our economy for years to come. If it doesn't work, in 4 years we'll be trying something else... :-)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:04 pm 
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Carl Fisher wrote:
Chuck Branscomb wrote:
Follow the money trail -- the number of special interests lining up at the trough is beyond anything ever seen in the past. Orders of magnitude beyond. I guess it will be a fun party for some while the debt spending lasts.

Have you followed the money trail, Chuck? Can you provide us a list of the special interests you've identified? Looking through the bill, I do not see a whole lot of special interests lined up, at least not ones that can be credibly be argued to be in there (such as specifying only US-manufactured steel in contruction projects). There actually a pretty good transparency and accountability provision here- all grantees (Federal, state, local) must post: the amount of their grant, what they're going to do with it, how much it will cost, and contact information at the agency if there are questions, all on the website at www.recovery.gov.

I haven't been through the entire thing, but most of the money Ryan listed does seem to be going to infrastructure projects, whether as grants or loans. If I had a little more time, it would be interesting to take those figures and pump them into Google Charts to come up with a pie chart. The trick would be that you'd really need to tag them with keywords so they could be grouped in various ways- there are so many items that no individual slice would likely be very visible.


Carl,

You've been around long enough to know how government spending works. The whole trick at the current time is to line up at the trough. Plenty of people will massively enrich themselves through companies setup to take advantage of the largest handout of public debt in the history of our country. The trick is to make sure you are in the food chain somewhere along that path. I'm glad I don't and won't be a part of it however.

Just look how well managed the "bail out" that started with Fannie and Freddie and Bear Stearns has "worked" -- our government in action. They have completely pushed out all private sector risk and destroyed a whole and very important part of ours and the world's economy. The smart guys got on board with the government (i.e. Bill Gross) by riding their coattails, buying MBS' and anything else the government was now going to take the risk out of (i.e. even commercial paper got T-bill like backing from the Feds!).

The trade of the century was last October 3rd. The moment, literally the exact moment, that the massive bailout bill passed the Congress, all you had to do was go completely short the S&Ps. Your realized risk was nothing as there was no drawdown on the trade. It took off downward, never looking back in part because the risk taking world (i.e. investment world) knew the future was going to be nothing like the past from that moment on. Socialism it is. That was ~1150 on the S&P.

Since the vast majority, it seems, of Americans don't really care and a huge number have no idea, I for one REALLY hope this "new" future works...for my kid's sake as I'm into my second 1/2 century now. It's a grand experiment that has the most profound implications, but that's all we have for it..."hope."

Often when emotions are THIS involved in large financial decisions, humans almost without exception choose the wrong path -- let's "hope" this isn't the case at this moment in history.

:wink:

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Last edited by Chuck Branscomb on Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:04 pm 
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Ryan Holton wrote:
Not to sound like an asshole but the answer is PAIN and lots of it.

You have 2 schools of thought:

Keynesian Economics: John Maynard Keynes, FDR, The new Deal, Obama, and George W Bush (whether you like it or not)

Classical Economics: Adam Smith, the Invisible Hand, Reagan


But wasn't Classical Economics thrown out the window when the greenspan was tasked with making the american dream available to everyone? Our current situation isn't so cut & dry considering that we are where we are because of government intervention.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:07 pm 
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Ryan Holton wrote:
Not to sound like an asshole but the answer is PAIN and lots of it.

You have 2 schools of thought:

Keynesian Economics: John Maynard Keynes, FDR, The new Deal, Obama, and George W Bush (whether you like it or not)

Classical Economics: Adam Smith, the Invisible Hand, Reagan


Wrong. Reagan was Supply Side Economics... creation of incentives to boost the economy. Things like tax breaks for income tax and capital gains tax. Arthur Laffer (developed the Laffer curve), came up with this methodology. - AB

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:10 pm 
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Aaron Buckley wrote:
Ryan Holton wrote:
Not to sound like an asshole but the answer is PAIN and lots of it.

You have 2 schools of thought:

Keynesian Economics: John Maynard Keynes, FDR, The new Deal, Obama, and George W Bush (whether you like it or not)

Classical Economics: Adam Smith, the Invisible Hand, Reagan


Wrong. Reagan was Supply Side Economics... creation of incentives to boost the economy. Things like tax breaks for income tax and capital gains tax. Arthur Laffer (developed the Laffer curve), came up with this methodology. - AB


Yeah, I guess Reagan dosent really fit the Classical definition. Like I said, I am NO EXPERT :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:10 pm 
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Jason Mauldin wrote:
Is there any hope that there could be a decent discussion on the pros and cons of this package for those of us who are not informed about it?

No

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:12 pm 
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I have degree in Economics Ryan, and yet I shudder to talk about politics and economic theory. They don't mix well ;) - AB

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:23 pm 
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A good site for reading up on "classical" economics if anyone is interested:

http://www.mises.org/

The answer to this problem is, Ryan said, pain. We got ourselves into this with excessive debt and overconsumption (partly b/c of Greenspan incentivizing it), the only way to get out is to underconsume for a while, allow bad debt to liquidate, and HOPEFULLY learn our lesson from it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:50 pm 
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BriceJohnson wrote:
The answer to this problem is, Ryan said, pain. We got ourselves into this with excessive debt and overconsumption (partly b/c of Greenspan incentivizing it), the only way to get out is to underconsume for a while, allow bad debt to liquidate, and HOPEFULLY learn our lesson from it.

The only hitch is that, at the same time, our nation's infrastructure is crumbling. I'm talking real infrastructure this time, like highways and bridges, and the hopelessly outdated electrical grid (not even considering any needs to decentralize it to handle [hopefully] upcoming renewable sources). These essentials have been neglected for years as a result of budgetary pressures and now need a big cash injection to repair, too.

Letting auto companies and investment banks fail is one thing, and frankly am not happy with those bailouts myself. But, economic theory be damned, I don't think we should be letting our bridges collapse or our lights go out.

Projects like this just seem, in my admittedly naive view, to fit a lot better with the "throw money at it" philosophy than the "endure much pain" one.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:09 pm 
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Carl Fisher wrote:
The only hitch is that, at the same time, our nation's infrastructure is crumbling. I'm talking real infrastructure this time, like highways and bridges, and the hopelessly outdated electrical grid (not even considering any needs to decentralize it to handle [hopefully] upcoming renewable sources). These essentials have been neglected for years as a result of budgetary pressures and now need a big cash injection to repair, too.


I'm with you on these 2 points -- I'm OK with my tax dollars going into improvements on interstate roadways and improvements to the electrical grid to prepare it for alternative energy. I am NOT at all OK with the way they are doing it or how it's packaged.

However I think the only way these projects can be handled successfully is with federal guidance but executed at a state level. Unfortunately the current top-heavy structure of our government means direct spending by washington with inadequate citizen oversight, input, or involvement.

Think about how much more accessible government would be if we paid 28% to our state and 7% to the federal government. IMO that's closer to what it _should_ be. Control things at home where I can trot down to the state capitol and be heard.

Maybe I'm just a confederate at heart :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:11 pm 
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By the way, on the subject of transparency...

The Fed refuses to release any information on the more than 2 trillion dollars in loans of someone's (i.e. our) money it has made in the past few months. This amount dwarfs the TARP bailout bill. In any event, this is going to be an interesting battle as Bloomberg filed a lawsuit in NY southern district court against the Federal Reserve recently on Freedom Of Information Act grounds.

Generally, I'd favor transparency and such, but in this case, if the world sees two things, (1) the absolute junk the Fed has taken in as collateral from big (well, formerly "big") banks and financial institutions, and (2) who the counterparties are for this junk, the potential for all heck to break loose is high.

In any event, we, the US Taxpayer who are 100% responsible for this action by our government, have no clue what the 2+ trillion bucks have been wagered against...and so it goes.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:12 pm 
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I try to avoid politics, and I know every politician is full of crap, so I'm not getting into that.

I do feel like the government should spend my money on things I'll use, like highways and electrical grids, instead of things I have no interest in, like Fords and Chevys. But seriously, I feel like tax money should go to public works, not private corporations. Just feels wrong to me. But from what I've seen, Mercans in general aren't really known for thinking very far into the future.

:lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:21 pm 
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Whitney - Holton 2012 got my vote.

One quick statement. The free market system works if it is allowed to, yes a certain level of taxes are a necessary evil or we would still be riding on dirt roads. What pisses me off is that conservative companies that I represent are now going to be competing against companies that made poor decisions and are being propped up by the Federal Government. My first commission check was 0.00 (not kidding) nobody ever offered my a bail out plan when I wasn't profitable.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:29 pm 
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clinehall wrote:
Whitney - Holton 2012 got my vote.


I will not accept if nominated and will not serve if elected

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:29 pm 
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Cline,

It's like putting kids through college. If you have saved for 20 years, managed your finances well, etc, you get zippo. However, if you didn't save squat, spent all your money and more every chance you got, have big house with 100% financing, tons of credit card debt, etc, then you get a reward to send your kids to college -- most likely a free ride for them from either taxpayers, endowment funds or both. It's amazing how we reward poor decisions and poor outcomes and penalize those who "do right". The old grasshopper story I guess...

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