THSCC Forums

I have a 335i loaner at the moment, and this thing has tons low to mid-rpm torque. With DSC off, it is a handful trying to modulate the power out of a curve (especially since it is an automatic ). It is very fast however...pretty amazing that BMW has this engine out for the 3-series. Throttle modulation is poor with surging, some boost surge on part throttle, etc. I would guess the 135i will be similar to this car with just 200 lbs less weight and a shorter wheelbase and overall length.

I think the SCCA has a job to try to class the 135i. I would hope those who are judging the class location for it would drive the car. BMW has really messed up, imo, by not having an LSD in these cars. This kind of power/torque is unmanageable w/o one, but I guess they figure the "typical" buyer will always have DSC on...sigh. In autox it's going to be combination of inside rear tire spinning like crazy and destroying the outside edges of the front tires due to too little camber available.

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

Sounds perfect for DS!


--Donnie

Thank you. I'm sick of reading articles about turboed cars with "virtually zero throttle lag". BS. I have never driven a turbo car without it annoying the crap out of me on the street. I was hopeful of the x35i but sounds like it's just another annoying turbo.

Naturally aspirated throttle response >> *

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

S/C throttle response is much better that Turbo IMHO, whicj is why I prefer them over tubo cars even though most turbo's make more power.

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Marty Howard
2011 NASA SE Factory Five Challenge Champion
Track Events Logistics Coordinator - TZC/THSCC
2007 Factory Five Challenge Car.
http://www.mh-motorsports.com

I dunno...I'm pretty easily annoyed by strange throttle response, but the twin turbo 996 I had was the only car that didn't seem to really have any. I'm sure the 997 turbos are even better in this regard, too.

Hell, waiting for that second cam in the Elise was far worse than ANY turbo lag I've ever had. In general a single turbo isn't going to be great, no. But a well set up twin is usually pretty dang good. Haven't driven much in the way of superchargers...the Elise one definitely made the wait on that cam much more tolerable, that's for sure.


--Donnie

That is what is so sweet about the M5, actually all M-cars except the USA version of the E36 M3 -- individual throttle bodies for each cylinder with a very small volume between the butterfly and intake valve. It makes for superb throttle response with perfect modulation of torque output...dial-a-foot-pound.

I don't think I've ever driven a turbo car with decent throttle response, and this one is NO EXCEPTION. If you already have some boost built, and you crack open the throttle, it takes off like a bandit, but try and modulate that power output at an intermediate throttle setting. Also this thing is full of surges and such, but it seems the auto tranny is contributing to that some. For whatever reason, throttle mapping (electronic) is different between the stick and auto, and you can drive the stick much smoother/easier to be smooth.

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

Thank you, I was a turbo guy the first time I drove a VTEC/VVTI equipped car. I couldn't believe how the car magazine raved about such technology and bashed turbos for lag, to me VTEC/VVTI is just like a really bad turbo setup.

EDIT: Actually the first VTEC car I drove was an NSX and that was pretty impressive, but then again the base engine actually had 3.0L of displacement.

Speaking of throttle response on the B6 S4 -- I recall a big uproar about that car with its electronic throttle mapping. One of the Audi forums had a post from someone who instrumented the throttle pedal and the throttle itself and captured real time data on the lag between pedal action versus throttle. Apparently it allowed the throttle to hang open some at times in addition to not responding as quick as it should. I have no idea if this issue was ever sorted or just ignored by Audi.

I have to hold back on final judgement of the 335i until I can drive a 6MT version. When I've driven an auto E90 330i, it is much different than the 6MT with surging, lagging throttle response, etc. I have no idea why the throttle mapping and/or the auto tranny setup has to result in such. Similarly, back when we had a 2004 V70R auto, it was essentially impossible to drive that car smoothly whereas the 2005 V70R with 6MT that replaced it had excellent throttle mapping/control.

Getting back to the turbo car throttle response... Mike, you'll have to drive my son's 2001 S4 sometime (twin turbo V6). I've not noticed anything untoward driving that car in the past. On the 2005 V70R, I do remember it having some real quirks though. At VIR when you would let up on the throttle from wide open, it would surge for a bit before relaxing -- not exactly what you want when you just want to lift a bit for weight transfer, and when entering a corner, you had to plan ahead to lift off at the proper time.

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

I've had several turbo cars. I loved both my twin turbo 3rd gen RX-7s. My first one was stock and was very easy to modulate. My second one was modded and while it had significant power gains it did give some throttle linearity. It did bite me once in a while at the track, but it was a blast to drive. I never pushed hard enough on the street for it be a problem.

I've driven some some custom applications that were very linear...certainly preferable to me than VTECH response. Would I prefer more displacement instead? Yeah sure, but modern turbos allow things that just would not happen otherwise.

Lag really is close to nil now. Many confuse lag with low rpm throttle response outside a turbo's operating range. Lag refers to the delay in power within the turbo's operating range.

I do love the sound of a V8 though.

My 07 WRX did the lag/ hang thing. I'd be on the brake pedal for close to a second sometimes before it would stop trying to accelerate at full throttle. This is one reason I only did one rallyx with it. The 04 STi I had was great, though. Immediate throttle response, immediately engine braking when I lifted. Only issue was that after 1/4" of throttle, it went from gentle acceleration to wide open. According to the "experts" there was no way to change the throttle map on the 07 WRX to match that of the 04 STi. I figured with all the whiz-bang gadgetry tuners have, it would be easy.

I found that guy's research on the B6 S4: http://est.org/S4b6throttle/index.html

I think Audi has updated s/w since then, but that is really a guess...how could they not?

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

That's interesting about the S4. Thanks for the link Chuck! I passed it along to my co-worker this morning and he mentioned that he was having trouble driving the car smoothly when driving "slowly." I asked him what he meant by driving "slowly" and he said that it only applies when the girlfriend is in the car. That seems like an easy fix-- kick the girlfriend out of the car!

But seriously, he is going to look into it further when he gets some free time. Apparently Audi hasn't "fixed" the issue yet or, at the very least, his car doesn't have any software upgrades yet.

Jim

Here's another link you might want to pass on to him: http://forums.audiworld.com/s4b6/msgs/69643.phtml.
This guy's signature area has a few other links too that may be of interest.

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

The Cooper S throttle response = Naturally Aspirated.

Let me clarify, First gen MINI Cooper S=Naturally Aspirated. I haven't driven enough other SCed cars to make a sweeping statement.

The only issue is that you have to get in the powerband to have it effect the car in any way, because until then, it's a gutless 1.6L 4 banger.

My 1.8T equipped VW was meh. The 2.0T gets rave reviews, but I tend to take those with a grain of salt.

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Not spectacular just decent.
I'm not sure what I'm driving.
Maybe an ITR in DS.
Or half-assed STX prepped 330.

Ok, final comments on the 335i loaner...

The "throttle response" is decent when you are trying to extract the most from the car. Throttle modulation is pretty good as turbo cars go -- like most turbo cars I've driven, backing out of the throttle is a non-linear process since just closing down the throttle doesn't give a linear reduction in torque production (at least not as linear as a N/A engine). However, the 335 doesn't surge coming off full throttle in something like a WOT run up through 2nd gear and then backing off completely. It feels fine under those conditions. I wish this thing was a 6MT since the auto tranny does some shenanigans at times as I mentioned in my first post.

I think on the track, even with the auto, it would respond nicely. In fact, under that type of driving, the automatic feels MUCH better than when you are trying to drive slowly and smoothly. It perfectly rev-matches downshifts, and it instantly responds to your shift request either through the paddles or shift lever. From that respect, this is BY FAR the best automatic transmission car I have ever driven. The rev-matched downshifts are just like an SMG car, and they are very smooth. Slowing into a 20mph corner and tapping the paddle gives a perfectly smooth (no jerky drivetrain deceleration) rev-matched downshift into 1st gear...ready for you to blast out of the apex (well, as long as blast means spinning the inside tire).

If only it had an LSD...

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2