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 Post subject: New Racing series?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:51 am 
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The other thread brought back an idea I had many years ago. I had played around with the thought of a new Stock Car racing series. The difference between this one and the others that proceeded it is the classes. In my series the cars would be classed according to their price and production numbers, not their HP/Lbs. ratio and handling prowess.

Here’s the basic idea. All cars would be Stock, except for safety equipment. The classes would pan out something like this.
Cars Under $25K and more than 30K built a year.
Cars Under $50K and more than 20K
Cars Under $75K and more than 10K built
Cars Over $75K and Over 1K Built a year.

I won’t care if was a coupe, sedan, station wagon in any of the classes. Let the Manufactures fight out on who really has the best cars for the money.

This would also keep the one off’s from winning a series when it doesn’t reflect any car in their line. The Manufacturers would have to install any winning parts on their production cars first before it shows up on the race version. It may get some builders off their but if their car gets beat every time.

Some good stuff I got in replies:

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really Stock or Just “Stock”

Me -
All cars have to be stock except safety equipement and possible driver seat change.

Be Great to showcase manufactures cars and for privateers. And NO handy capping the winners. The other makers will have to just step up to compete. Also no Special edition parts or models that the public can not buy. All modifications must be available to the general public and the actual car competing will have to be priced as msrp. Any new items must first appear in production before it can get into the series cars. No BMW GTR V8 cars here (UMM, yeah...we're going to build a V8 M3....Someday).




--------------------

I believe that everyone would love a series like this... everyone except auto manufacturers. The first category would be one of the fiercest, and would also cause the most friction with the manufacturers. That they would be forced to actually compete with eachother based on production models would make quite a few marketing folks nervous (what if your cars end up sucking wind on the track, how do you sell them?). I think that's probably why it won't happen unless one of the big three gets behind it. The other problem is that the american auto makers would be forced to compete with the foreign ones, and we all know how much they don't like direct competition (see import duties on trucks). Disclaimer having been noted, if this series were to happen, and have something other than an oval track, (throw some left and right curves at them), I would start to watch auto racing religiously.



Me -
I think the key to make all the Makers happy and have more than one model winning is to mix up the types of tracks. Have the tight/twisty tracks so the lower HP foreign cars (and maybe domestic, you never know)can shine. Then have more open venues where the higher HP vehicles can stretch their legs. Think about a Camaro against a WRX. Each could easily win depending on the track.

One other point I thought about is to let cars compete up to 2 years after production dates. That way if a Maker stops builing a car (ie F-Bodies), the privateers can still run them for two years.


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Sounds good to me. I wouldn't mind seeing some real world racing. What would be cool is if they were required to use a real car. But they could strip the interior and install a cage and other safety equipment. Other than that they had to use the car as is...


Me -
No Stripping allowed, too much weight can be taken out that way. I think they can only replace the driver seat with a fia or sfi approved seat, and install safety equipment

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Not in the US Marty. People in the US buy cars based on how they look and how fast they accelerate. Nobody really cares how good a car is overall other than us autox and roadrace people. You know the ALMS is based on production numbers. I think World Challenge has some Production stipulations too. I do think it's a neat Idea, but after a season it'd be a one car series in each class. Besides that'd really screw up what car and driver does to tell you what the best car is. Putting a 0-60 time on the cover of a mag is all important to a cars performance you know.

Me-
I had always heard people bought cars on Price and perceived value in the US (or the often catch phrase - Bang for the Buck). Which is why the Camry and Accords are the #1 selling cars. As far as Performance images go, yes the mighty 0-60 and HP figures rule, which is funny to me because peak HP tells nothing about the total TQ curve.

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Those would be some pretty boring classes...

I like the idea, but the production numbers are a little on the high side.

Among the many cars not eligible...

Toyota MR2 Spyder (fewer than 10,000 per year, but the price is around $50,000)

Toyota Celica GTS
Toyota Celica GT (only the first year of a model ever meets those production numbers)

Toyota Supra

Acura NSX

Corvette Z06

Subaru WRX, STi

etc...

Set all production numbers at 1000 units (or lower) and keep the price divisions.

Why should the enthusiast be at the mercy of the "normal" population, obviously our shopping habits differ from the "norm."


Me-
They wouldn't be excluded, just moved up a class. The actual cut off numbers would need to be fined tuned.

As far as one model winning all the time, that would just show that it's a better car as far as this series goes. Maybe it would get the other Manufactures off their buts.

If the Z06 is whooping up on the $75K+ cars, then that shows how good the Z06 really is for $50K.

If you set the prod numbers as low as 1K, then the manufactures will design a ringer, sell 1K to their supported teams and certain privateers and nothing would be available to the general public.

There also needs to be a rule about a car can not compete until it goes on sale to the public. Otherwise you could also get Cars like the M3 GTR (hmm, yeah, we are going to sell a V8 M3....Someday).


--------------------------------------------------------------------

Your series would be a great answer to this if there were a variety of racing types for the cars. Unfortunally if the cars are actually close to stock there will be a car in each class that beats everything else and it won't be interesting to watch. To cure this you'd have to add weight or cut power on the top cars, which would then make crappy cars look better than they actually are, and then again you get the perceived image that something is better than it actually is.

Me -
I think the key to make all the Makers happy and have more than one model winning is to mix up the types of tracks. Have the tight/twisty tracks so the lower HP foreign cars (and maybe domestic, you never know)can shine. Then have more open venues where the higher HP vehicles can stretch their legs. Think about a Camaro against a WRX. Each could easily win depending on the track.

One other point I thought about is to let cars compete up to 2 years after production dates. That way if a Maker stops builing a car (ie F-Bodies), the privateers can still run them for two years.

So would anyone here watch this?

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2007 Factory Five Challenge Car.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:18 pm 
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Ahh, the beginning of the off season, when the bench racing begins!!

My thoughts

Ok, here are the negative ones…

• Production numbers are too high. You don’t want “ringers”, so that means that something like a Honda Civic Si is a different model from the Civic EX, LX, etc. My gut tells me that someone like Honda could care less about racing the LX or EX (which might make those numbers) when they they would like to race the Si.
• You mention that existence of “special edition” parts must be made available to the general public, etc. Isn’t that a huge loop hole? So you now have the Honda Civic LX (that meets the numbers), but you can get a “kit” that effectively transforms it into a Si? Even if priced at cost, it would make no sense for a reasonable person to buy the LX, spend the time and money to convert to the Si “spec”. But a factory effort could do this. This could kill all but factory efforts.
• Regarding the comments about different tracks will help equalize the cars. That assumes that the series is able to do that successfully. You still may end up with some cars that absolutely suck and the manufactures wishing they could install part “X” from a model that doesn’t make the cut off.
• For a manufacture to get in they have to agree with the “Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday” theory. For smaller volume specialty cars that are attractive to motorsport enthusiast that might work. But for high volume cars (Honda Accord, Toyota Camry) it is sad to say, but those buyers could car less about how well they might do on track. And the manufactures know this.
• You talk about manufactures getting their butts into gear to build competitive cars. Again, the business they are in is to sell cars, not sell “race cars”. I am of the opinion that for the most part, corporate pride at the track is a dying thing. Short of maybe Ferrari and (sadly) to a lesser degree Porsche there is little in the way of major manufactures who car about motorsports outside of it being a way to help sell cars. I think that Honda has some racing pride and frankly I think Toyota only wants to race to try to prove something to everyone else (inferiority complex in the wrong place). Everyone else (Ford, Dodge, Chevy, etc.) are just in it (at the corporate level) as a way to help sell cars. Granted, there are people in those companies who would love to do as you suggest, but they have to be a minority. So unless you can offer them a way to help sell cars, they are not doing it for “the sport”

The positive ones…

• If you want this to work at a lower level of professionalism, then it can be done. But it would be a total grass roots effort with little or no manufacture support. This is why things like Spec Miata, Honda Challenge, Ferrari Challenge, etc. work because they are supported by racer and in many cases, racers who have a love for a specific marque.
• If you do want manufacture involvement, then you have to decide how much. For example do you want a full out factory supported team that just blows away the privateers due to prep level? I would suggest trying to find a way to legislate something like what Porsche does with the 911. They don’t directly have a factory team, but they want to sell customer cars. I think that has a way to keeping everyone on a level playing field.
• If you want manufacture support, then you have to drastically lower the homologation numbers. I agree that a number like 1K would be too low and invite ringer cars. I think that rules about update/backdate can be put into place to allow specific upgrades. I think you might make better headway with zero internal engine modification, but allow some external tweaks (intake, exhaust, etc.). I like the idea of not stripping the cars, but I suspect for people who would want to take this seriously the interior is just going to be in the way. Just let the pull stuff out of the interior, but require them to add ballast to come back up to an agreed upon “stock weight”. You could also require stock front/rear weight distribution. Allowing removal of interior may also add in addition of safety equipment.

The bottom line is that as you spell it out, it would be too risky for a manufacture to jump in. They may want to watch privateers to see how they do before they jump in with a factory effort. And if all of the manufactures sits on the sideline then you end up with what looks like SCCA club racing (which if fine, but not what you are looking to do as far as I can tell). Or if only a few manufactures jump in, they will not have enough competition to remain (such as Corvette in ALMS)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:23 pm 
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The price point is "as optioned", so the SI would qualify under the civic as long as the car can be bought at the dealership as is for under the price cap.

Options do not mean kits. An Option must be available at all dealerships installed for under the price cap as will.

It is true that most manufacturers have gotten away from "race pride". I do find it encouraging to see Mazda embrace it from the Spec racer and grass roots success they have gained.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:44 pm 
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Marty Howard wrote:
The price point is "as optioned", so the SI would qualify under the civic as long as the car can be bought at the dealership as is for under the price cap.

Options do not mean kits. An Option must be available at all dealerships installed for under the price cap as will.

It is true that most manufacturers have gotten away from "race pride". I do find it encouraging to see Mazda embrace it from the Spec racer and grass roots success they have gained.


So you wrap the Si under the entire production numbers for the Civic? That opens up the next loophole...

Honda then brings out a US Civic Type-R for under the price cap, but they only sell 100 of them. 100 lucky souls then end up what really turns out to be a race car in disguise that is purpose built for this series and if priced at cost might be 3x MSRP (Honda just sells them at a loss). A certain number of the 100 quickly find their ways into the hands of specific Honda sponsored teams.

I think that you need to make sure that ANY single "package" has a signifant production run (lets say 5K or more) and that the "family" has to have even larger numbers (your 30k number). So this prevents the special Type-R I mention above as it require so many to be produced that they will not want to make a hot car and sell at a loss, or if they do, more people win by getting such a great deal as well as ensuring that it is based upon a more mainstream car. So this helps something like a Honda Civic, but prevents something like a Lotus Elise (as the Elise will not have enough total production numbers)

It is good that Mazda is pushing the Zoom Zoom thing. Especially with it also not being focused on some $100K "Halo" car.

Sorry for being negative. :D I am just trying to play devils advocate and poke holes. I would love to see something like this happen.

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Richard Casto
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Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:54 pm 
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Richard Casto wrote:
I think that you need to make sure that ANY single "package" has a signifant production run (lets say 5K or more) and that the "family" has to have even larger numbers (your 30k number). So this prevents the special Type-R I mention above as it require so many to be produced that they will not want to make a hot car and sell at a loss, or if they do, more people win by getting such a great deal as well as ensuring that it is based upon a more mainstream car. So this helps something like a Honda Civic, but prevents something like a Lotus Elise (as the Elise will not have enough total production numbers)


Great solution and you see where I am trying to head with this.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:05 pm 
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Marty Howard wrote:
Richard Casto wrote:
I think that you need to make sure that ANY single "package" has a signifant production run (lets say 5K or more) and that the "family" has to have even larger numbers (your 30k number). So this prevents the special Type-R I mention above as it require so many to be produced that they will not want to make a hot car and sell at a loss, or if they do, more people win by getting such a great deal as well as ensuring that it is based upon a more mainstream car. So this helps something like a Honda Civic, but prevents something like a Lotus Elise (as the Elise will not have enough total production numbers)


Great solution and you see where I am trying to head with this.


The next loophole to close would be the definition of the "family". You wouldn't want someone to "claim" their ringer car is part of the Toyota Camry "family". You would tend to not let the manufacture define this. Either the governing body could make the call, or they could look elsewhere for help. For example I don't know how the DOT handles crash testing. For example I am assuming (maybe wrong) that you don't have to crash test every variation of your cars. So if four variations use the same shell and the DOT considers them similar enough to do one crash test, then you can say they are part of the same "family". Don't know if that is a real workable solution, but you probably get the idea.

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Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:57 pm 
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I think the 5K units of this may address the issue of Family as well. But I think the shared chassis, etc as the NIHSA classifies them would probably work.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:55 am 
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Richard Casto wrote:
I think you might make better headway with zero internal engine modification

Remember that you're going to get what happened in SCCA Showroom Stock in the 80's (probably still happening, I don't know). You can't balance and blueprint, but that doesn't stop you walking into the factory and picking out four pistons that weigh exactly the same at the light end of the manufacturer's spec.

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