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 Post subject: Police Chase Laws?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:37 am 
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Location: Raleigh, NC
What is the law in NC regarding headlights and flashing lights during high speed (well over the 55 mph limit) police chases before sunrise?

One of Cary's finest passed me this morning on 1 & 64 S at about 7 AM while chasing down one of the many speeders on that stretch of road. My concern is that even though the cop was WELL over the speed limit and changing lanes as needed he did not have his flashing lights on and also did not have his headlights on. As a result the typical Monday morning commuter could have easily changed lanes into the path of a barely visible high speed cop car. :(

As I recall, the law only requires headlights more than half an hour before sunrise but doesn't it require pursuit cars to have their flashing lights on when exceeding the speed limit?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:08 am 
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Uhhh, Do YOU want to stop him and remind him??? :shock: They aren't supposed to run into bridge abutments hard enough to kill themselves while making a U turn on an assistance call either. With all the patrol car crashes, it seems NC's finest need a driving refresher course SOON! Maybe we should hold a novice school just for them? :twisted:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:29 am 
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They are supposed to have headlights on, but at times when you are focused on getting your target, trying to catch up to them, etc....they were prolly not thinking of their lights.
Technically , yes, turning all lights and blues on is how it is supposed to go, but if he was comin out of his hidy hole, he prolly wasnt thinking bout it till he got behind the car. Feel free to call it in, and I will bring it up in our drivers training.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:57 am 
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You're just jealous

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Shawna Geyer wrote:
They are supposed to have headlights on, but at times when you are focused on getting your target, trying to catch up to them, etc....they were prolly not thinking of their lights.
Technically , yes, turning all lights and blues on is how it is supposed to go, but if he was comin out of his hidy hole, he prolly wasnt thinking bout it till he got behind the car. Feel free to call it in, and I will bring it up in our drivers training.


Shawna,

Are you with the City of Cary PD?

Can you bring it up in driver's training without a "call in"? My concern is that I don't want to see a cop who was clearly after a "scofflaw" hurt him/her self or any of the rest of us. I wondered if the "stealth" approach was on purpose so that he could clock the guy (I don't know if Cary uses radar on 1 & 64). Plus is pulling someone over onto a barely wide enough left lane shoulder next to a Jersey barrier considered "best practice"? (not that trying to get over to the right lane in a 3/4 lane wide highway is likely to be "safer").

Dick (who drives a bright red Mustang GT and constantly has to remind himself to stay near the speed limit on the 1 & 64 racetrack. :) )

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:08 am 
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It really depends on where the driver wants to pull over, if its not safe, then usually they can take the license and tell the driver to pull to a safer spot....doesnt always happen like that as you often see:)
Everyone is a bit different, even tho we were all trained pretty much the same way....its all bout discretion...
Some do need a nice reminder tho:)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:00 pm 
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You mentioned this was a traffic stop, but bear in mind there are times when you do not want the police to run the lights and sirens. There are times where discretion is safer to the public.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:33 am 
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Chuck Frank wrote:
Uhhh, Do YOU want to stop him and remind him??? :shock: They aren't supposed to run into bridge abutments hard enough to kill themselves while making a U turn on an assistance call either. With all the patrol car crashes, it seems NC's finest need a driving refresher course SOON! Maybe we should hold a novice school just for them? :twisted:


A few comments about law enforcement officers and driving. First of all, it's much more difficult and dangerous to safely respond to an emergency call than driving around cones in a parking lot! The amount of distractions officers have to deal with in a car is overwhelming!!! The officers drive in an enviornment that's often unforgiving (i.e., you make one mistake and there are serious consequences). If one makes a mistake during an autox you're usually cleaning cone marks off the car. While it's easy to be critical of officers' driving, most of us would feel differently if we had to run 10-18 (emergency traffic) on city streets every day...personally, it is a very uncomfortable experience for me. FWIW, I could have just as easily been officer Calleymn in Durham.

When it comes to driving, police officers are just like other people, some are natually great drivers, but all can benefit from additional training. The problem is not with officers, but departments/governments being able to provide quality training on a regular basis. The logistical problems with offering driver training on a large scale is a challenge for the 500+ law enforcement agencies in the state. Finding a decent location, time, money, and good instructors are not easy problems to overcome in providing this training. The City of Charlotte refused to fund a driver training center for their police department for years until they hand enough fatalities and lawsuits to convince them otherwise.

Chuck, since you feel so passionate about the topic, I recommend writing a thoughtful, constructive, and humble letter to City of Durham elected officials requesting that you would be happy to have your property taxes raised a bit to fund such an important program - I'm serious about this. The only thing most elected officials hear is complaints about taxes being too high, so they end up cutting programs or staff doesn't even bother to propose good programs because they likely won't be funded. Change is less likely to happen when the public sits in silence.

Providing driver safety schools and training for police officers is something that I started to get involved in about 10 years ago in my last job becuase there was clearly a gap between the need and a lack of training availability. It is not an easy task to design and coordinate a meaningful driver safety school for law enforcement officers, there are a lot more elements involved than a typical autox school! The schools we've put on for our department in Hillsborough (with a lot of help from many fellow autocrossers) over the years have taken a lot of work and I have access to lots of resources that other communities don't have (i.e., a Mayor & Board that support the training, good sites for training like VIR, a large talent pool of autocrossers who are willing to help run the school as instructors & safety workers, and a basic understanding of the driver safety/risk management side v. the needs of the officers so a solid curriculum could be designed). If it's a challenge, hard work, and stressful for me to do these schools when I have easy access to lots of help, imagine how much harder it is for most other agencies to coordinate a meaningful school.

I don't disagree that there is a need for driver training especially since it's something I've advocated in my job as a town manager, have tried to promote by allowing magazine and newspaper reporters to take the course and write articles about it, as well as having insurance company representatives and elected officials take the school to build support for this type of training. While I may have misinterpretted the comment, I disagree that providing a "novice school" for officers would be helpful since it comes off as demeaning and lacking understanding of what they have to deal with on a daily basis. These folks have incredibly difficult jobs, driving aside, so anything we can do as the public to support and assist them in performing their jobs is also good for the community. The best way to initiate change and see the type of police department and/or government operations that one would like is to share your thoughts, concerns, and ideas with your elected officials who ultimately provide direction to the staff and departments in whatever city or county you may live.

Eric


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:58 am 
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I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
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Location: Raleigh NC
Sorry to have pushed a sensitive button, but there has been a rash of incidents of just plain careless and foolish accidents involving law enforcement officers of late, most just involve property damage, i.e. driving off retaining walls in parking lots, but some have been far more serious. I live less than a mile from where the Durham officer hit the bridge abutment hard enough to kill himself, and cannot blame the accident on anything but over agressive driving, how hard is it to make a U turn in 4 lanes safely even if in a hurry (and I may be wrong but the news indicated it was a non emergency call for assistance on a traffic stop)? Then the police did such a heavy handed job of covering up the cause and praising the officer it rivaled Watergate. (in car video "just happened" to malfuction at that precise moment but it worked fine a few minutes before and right after???) I do realize there may be some reasons such as insurance and benefits to his family to class it as in line of duty, but don't hold a ticker tape parade for the guy.
I whole heartedly agree it is much harder to drive safely on the street than an Ax course, and that fact should be emphatically taught to the officers, and they carry a heavier burden to use good judgement in responding to a non life threatening call. On many more than 1 occasion I have seen police cars shoot down our barely 1/4 mile long street with their foot on the floor and no emergency lights on and with absolutely no regard to the fact there is no place to go should a child step off the curb or a car back out of their driveway at that moment. They can't all be responses to life threatening emergencies.
I also agree more money should be allocated to driver education, but taxpayers like myself have a hard time with paying more taxes when so much of the time the money is funneled off into wasteful and self serving projects by the polititians in charge of making the spending decisions.

PS: and no, I do not want to run for office.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:10 am 
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Chuck Frank wrote:
Then the police did such a heavy handed job of covering up the cause and praising the officer it rivaled Watergate.


Mike Nifong must have personally taken over the investigation, thats the only possible explaination

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:53 am 
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Eric Peterson wrote:
...in my job as a town manager...


You learn something new every day. I had no idea what your day job was Eric. I had assumed that all THSCC members did nothing but hang out at home, post on the forums, and work on their cars between events. :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:33 pm 
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Richard Casto wrote:
Eric Peterson wrote:
...in my job as a town manager...


You learn something new every day. I had no idea what your day job was Eric. I had assumed that all THSCC members did nothing but hang out at home, post on the forums, and work on their cars between events. :lol:


Richard, I have to do something to put Hoosiers on the car...and, oh yea I guess diapers on Kelly & Anna :-) Seriously, one of the cool things about the sport of autocross that I really like is that on the one hand, no one cares what folks do for a living, it's all about how you treat one another and figuring out how to drive around orange cones.

On the other hand, you get to meet interesting people that have all sorts of different occupations and perspecitives on life. Going to an autocross is a great mental escape and break from our work lives. We get to focus on spending time with cool people, learning a course, driving as fast as we can, tire pressure settings, and other fun stuff that temporarily pushes away all the challenges we have to deal with during our normal work week. After a fun weekend of being a "cone jockey" it's often a let down to go back to the office, I guess that's why it's called work and not fun.

Eric


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:06 pm 
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Location: Raleigh/Durham
Chuck Frank wrote:
I whole heartedly agree it is much harder to drive safely on the street than an Ax course, and that fact should be emphatically taught to the officers, and they carry a heavier burden to use good judgement in responding to a non life threatening call. On many more than 1 occasion I have seen police cars shoot down our barely 1/4 mile long street with their foot on the floor and no emergency lights on and with absolutely no regard to the fact there is no place to go should a child step off the curb or a car back out of their driveway at that moment. They can't all be responses to life threatening emergencies.


However, and I know that Chuck would agree with me, that except for these instances, we are both very supportive of the Durham police department and appreciate everything that they do, especially in our own neighborhood, and have told them so many times. The ones that patrol our area know that we autocross and know what cars should be at our house. They've had coffee refills at my house. Our neighborhood watch is active and we look out for each other. The police know that they can count on all of us to let them know about anything odd going on.
We have mentioned the quick shoots down our (very short) street to the ones that we see. We both worry about it because we do have small children and beloved pets taking walks and playing, and would hate to have one get hurt or killed. It's been very upsetting to both of us. I don't know if our mention of it ever got brought among them though.
We have a police substation less than one mile from the house, and we like that. :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:42 pm 
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Eric Peterson wrote:
While I may have misinterpretted the comment, I disagree that providing a "novice school" for officers would be helpful since it comes off as demeaning and lacking understanding of what they have to deal with on a daily basis. These folks have incredibly difficult jobs, driving aside, so anything we can do as the public to support and assist them in performing their jobs is also good for the community. The best way to initiate change and see the type of police department and/or government operations that one would like is to share your thoughts, concerns, and ideas with your elected officials who ultimately provide direction to the staff and departments in whatever city or county you may live.
Eric


Our neighborhood has been in the center of several mishaps as recently as this week, so the topic is fresh.
And it's long been a topic between us, I'm afraid. Over the years several people that came from my neighborhood and grew up to be officers of either the city or county have had some bad situations. Unfortunately one had their car stolen, another has been locked out of their patrol car and one even had his gun taken away because he left in the car... :shock:
On the one hand, I've always felt bad for them because I know their families, but on the other Chuck and I have both expressed concern for the level of training that they must have received. And of course, these things happen everywhere...just hopefully not more often here in NC than in other areas. I'm so tired of hearing negative things about my home state on national or local tv.
We've all complained about paying taxes. But I'd much rather be paying for training, schools and improvements than for as many guns and explosives as it seems is the case.

Being a police officer...I've always heard it descibed as hours and hours of total boredom separated by five minutes of sheer terror and stress.

Chuck was used to officers in his neighborhood walking a really tight line. He grew up next door to a police captain. His family had four kids...three boys and a girl. Chuck's family had four kids...three boys and a girl. They all played together and hung out all the way through highschool.
The captain was a great guy. I met him early in our relationship when I would visit Chuck's family with him in Buffalo. He and Chuck's Dad were buddies, so they were often out in the yard joking or working on something. He had a great sense of humor, his whole family did. One Christmas, EVERYONE in the family gave each other Yatzee for their gift! :lol:
Once when Chuck came home on leave from the army and didn't have a ride from the airport, Joe sent a black and white to pick him up.
But he was very serious about his job and with his people. Cars came and went often, checking in with him when he was at home. Buffalo seemed to be pretty tight on their force. It's a big city and a lot happened. I'm sure he was major stressed, but not once did I see it. Seemed to be just the way he was at home.

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