THSCC Forums

What a difference a day makes. Before yesterday, I was proud of my achievements in autox this year (even though I had been taunted with "weak pax" and "not really street tires" all year). But... about two years ago, I had installed some STi hardened motor mounts to keep from popping out of 1st gear when descending steep, bumpy roads in the mountains - this was about 6 months before I even knew what an autox was. Now it appears that all the driving this year was done by those motor mounts, and that I don't deserve anything. So, I'm going to give back all the trophies I thought I had earned this year (and last year, since my car has never been completely legal for STS "by the letter of the rules" - and ignorance of the law is no defense for committing a crime). Whoever's in charge can also feel free to remove my name from any
year-end trophies that I thought I had earned. I really don't want them now that they're "tainted." Yes, I'm a little bothered now that the accusations have sunk in, but I'll get over it.

Sincerely,

Kevin Allen

PS - here are a few other illegal modifications I've had over the past year
(that I know of):

Installed some $35 camber bolts but then found out I could only legally
install $200 camber plates, so since the bolts were illegal and they
enhanced performance, I removed them and just stuck with the factory
adjustments of -1° all around. (But I did have the bolts installed at a few autoxes.)

Rather than dump change out on the ground (I had forgotten to dump it out at home), removed the change tray at a couple of events to avoid "ching-ching" during runs. But this is considered illegal lightening, I guess.

Pretty sure I'm missing some trim screws somewhere, but can't remember exactly where - oh, wait, I remember a few now...

At a lot of events, I didn't have any rear speakers in the car. I had
removed the speakers a long time ago because I don't like to hear the rear speakers in a car, and the holes kept the trunk (and the camera equipment inside the trunk) cooler in the summer time. (thought this was legal, but found out later it wasn't, so I put them back in - but left them unplugged)

I'm thinking there's a rule that says you have to remove your floormats, and at a few events, I've been too lazy to take them out.

And I had about 5-10 lbs of ballast behind the passengers seat many times, because I wanted to have my camera equipment with me instead of lying on the ground with my spare tire. I'm sure this lowered the center of gravity and changed the front/ rear weight bias enough to make a 0.00000000005 sec difference.

That's all I can remember, but I'm sure there have been more incidents.

Kevin... I think you're going a little overboard here. Keep your trophies and your year end trophy. Autocross, as is everything, is a learning experience.

The big issue is that most people don't know all of the rules. I think the only thing that can be learned from this is that we need to make sure as a club that everyone has a copy of the rules that we are governed by. Unfortunately, you were used as the example, but it's obvious you didn't know that you were outside the rules. Don't lose any sleep over this, for it's not worth it - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

Kevin,

I agree with Aaron, you shouldn't worry about this at all.

I don't think you intended to gain any performance advantage from anything on your car and quite frankly it's too late to worry about it. Learn from the experience and move on to next year.

You are going to get year end trophies even if I have to duct tape them to your car.

Shawn

Locally, if I was in charge of the protest committee:



Not sure. Protest would probably be denied.



Protest would be denied.



Protest would be denied.



Protest would be denied.



Protest would be denied.



Protest would be denied.

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Camber bolts, motor mounts, bushings, etc are specific in the 2003 rule book. Those protest would have to be upheld. That is not even a gray area. And there is no basis for a denial.

The interesting point Kevin makes is the rear speakers. Those are a grey area. If the protest stated they were removed to alllow access for shock adjustment, that is a performance advantage. If there are just holes there that do not allow anything, the protest is questionable at best. And a waste of time at worse. Likewise the missing interior clips. If they allow a panel to be pulled away for getting to the shocks...another grey area.

This is a good example of why to beg, borrow or steal a rulebook and read it. No one ever makes a questionable modification for a performance gain. There are still arguements and accusations flying over the ESP protest at the 2002 Nationals. It has caused a lot of hard feelings between competitors and friends. Likewise the protest at the 2003 Nationals for STS.

Although Mike might deny a protest because the car in question is owned by a club member or friend, you will not have that luxury at another club's event and it will not even be close at NCAC or SCCA level.

THSCC does little or anything in the way we help new people class cars. I remember 4 years ago at my first event Diane asking what modifications I had done to my while I was registering. I bragged about my sway bars. She informed me that the rear bar placed me in CSP. So my first event was in a CSP Miata.

Since we are one of the very few self-policing motorsports, every competitor should know the rules. If there is a question, nicely ask that person about it. But know the rules. You would not walk out on the football field with no idea of the rules of the game.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

I'm late to the party on this but why do we seem to continue to have this discussion? As Jim says some of these items are listed specifically in the rules. You then have a couple choices.

Know that its wrong but live with it.

Change it back.

Or, and here is my favorite, run your car in the correct class!

Pretty simple.

Ron

Pretty simple until you get into gray areas.

If I was on a protest committee and someone brought Kevin's laundy list of protests I'd rule illegal but the penalty would be "no penalty, fix it before the next event if you want to stay in the class.

--Kevin H.

Actually, looking at Kevin's list again, I feel that the change tray and rear speakers are both C&C. The floormats and camera gear are both covered by the loose items clauses under safety. IIRC only safety stewards may protest those types of issues.

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2003 WRX (again!)

Grey (or gray) areas.... Hmm, I was only referring to black and white items. Now I haven't looked at a rule book in a while but it used to be that ifit wasn't mentioned as being permitted then....it just flat wasn't! No gray area here.

Now, I also believe that as long as your competition agrees that they are OK with it (this means you have to ask EVERY competitor) then go ahead and run it. And non performance items like a missing piece of trim is not what I am talking about.

But, as Jim pointed out, you are fair game when at other club's events. Why not just run the car in the class its supposed to be in and be happy with that? Or, as I said, change it back so its correct for the class you wish to run in?

Ron

Why not change it back so I'd be technically legal?

1. I'm a noob, and I didn't understand how serious some people take this stuff. I just figured common sense would outweigh an apparent (to me) omission from the rulebook.

2. I didn't (and still don't) think engine mounts gave a performance advantage - especially since there were so many things that I didn't do that I could've legally done to make my car measurably faster.

3. When I found out they were illegal for STS halfway through 2003, I asked my closest competitors in STS and a few of the faster guys overall, and they blew it off.

4. I was NOT going to swap the stock mounts back in for several reasons (including one of the nuts being rounded off when I attempted to swap them back after I found out that they weren't legal for STS) but I didn't want to get bumped to STX, where since NOBODY runs STX/Open I'd just get bumped to some other class where my car had few similarities to the other cars I'd be running against - again, the "noobish" common sense taking over and clouding my judgement.

5. My goal when I started 2003 was "beat Matt Nicholson at least once." I didn't know I was going to win STS Open, Night series Open, and the Top Gun trophy in my second year of autoxing. If I'd had an idea in January 2003 of how well I was going to do this year, I would've gotten some assistance from an experienced autoxer at the beginning of the year, and prepared my car by the rules - AND TO THE LIMIT OF THE RULES.


Now that I've been talked into feeling guilty for winning Everything, I damn sure won't be putting a damn thing on my damn car that isn't damn well legal for the damn class that I'm running, and I will damn well make sure I know what class each of my damn modifications is legal for. Dammit.

Damn!

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

So young, so bitter... Damn that rap music!!!

Actually, you can blame it on TOOL. I don't listen to rap music.

The BEST thing you can do when you decide to participate in ANY form of competition, whether it is AX, photography, sports, or a contest on the back of a cereal box, is to get a complete copy of the official rules and read them carefully from beginning to end. That way you can save yourself a lot of expense, time and grief, as well as possibly using them to give yourself an advantage. If the contest rules for a photography competition says they only accept black and white 8x10 mounted prints, entering a color slide will not win or probably even be considered even if it was THE very best picture ever taken. Same goes if the rules say you can enter up to 3 pictures per photographer, only entering 1 cuts your chances by 2/3's.
My constant comment when someone questions the rules is: The rules are the rules, like them or not, think they are reasonable or not, it doesn't matter. If you want to play then you have to play by them.
I've never seen any organized competition where you can do anything YOU want or think is reasonable. There is always a line in the sand.

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

The first part and the second part have nothing to do with one another. Rules are rules, whether *you* believe there is a performance advantage or not.

How could *this* be a performance advantage? Simple...in *some* cars the stresses we apply while autocrossing can throw things *so* out of whack that it affects the car all the way to the shift knob. Stress it too much the right way and hitting a particular gear gets more difficult. Since the transmission is affixed solidly to the engine...

While I certainly wasn't affected by your illegality and pretty much don't care one way or the other, your actions do still have consequences. Did your modifications provide a measurable performance advantage? Doubtful. But we won't ever know that, either. That said, I consider this whole thing nothing more than a good learning exercise for everyone...for you because you now know and for your competitors because they are now also aware of issues like this (and *all* competitors, really). In the end, you should have *zero* guilt...after all, not a soul protested you for it. You can piss, moan, and whine until the cows come home about someone else being illegal, but until you protest them for it, you have no basis for complaining (unless there is some part of this story I'm missing).


--Donnie

I can't tell from your post whether you are being facetious or you are truly upset. I want to be a little ray of sunshine in this thread though.

I believe that it is the responsibility of the competitors in STS to bring any protests at the time of the event. Being the end of the year, I don't think protests carry any weight now. I seriously doubt anyone in this club is going to argue that motor mounts actually made you more competitive. I for one will not, being an STS competitor this year.

You are an excellent driver. Regardless of whether your mods were legal in STS, you deserve to be recognized for your outstanding driving. You are very personable, always excited about driving, and I have always seen you be friendly toward everyone. If I were introducing my friends to people who auto-x, I would start with you.

There, have I made you feel better yet?

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2000 Honda Prelude