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 Post subject: Tatuus F1 Hybrid
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:04 am 
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Green Goes Mean? Motorsports Firms to Build Hybrid F1 Car

FIA president Max Moseley has already said some form of regenerative braking system that powers a burst-of-speed system is the future for Formula One (a comment that caused more than a few FIA underlings to spit-take their Châteauneuf du Pape). Now, two motorsports technology firms are teaming up to build the first hybrid-drive Formula car. Formula Renault builder Tatuus will build a concept designed by the technologists at N.Technology. Could a new "green" series be in the offing, or will Moseley get his F1 wish?

http://jalopnik.com/cars/concept-cars/g ... 197571.php

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:59 pm 
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This reminds me of being at the SCCA convention two years ago in Kansas City. At the big town hall meeting with the entire board and all the officers present, someone gets up and goes to the microphone to "ask" why the SCCA wasn't embracing electric vehicle technology. The person then went on a diatribe about the environmental impacts of gasoline race cars and a lot of other annoying things.

The board responded that the person had brought up an interesting issue they should look more into yada yada yada. Basically boilerplate blowing the guy off nicely. Whatever.

It gets more interesting, though, as an Arizona based SCCA region member comes up and says "well, I'm breaking format as this isn't a question, but I'd like to address the previous question about electric based vehicle racing..." and then goes on to say that they had gone so far as to have a small *series* of electric cars racing in their region. Problem was that on multiple occasions they had cars have battery meltdowns on course. Some were caused by problems with the car, others were caused when batteries were damaged in crashes. But in every case, there was a *bad* and very nasty mess to clean up after the fact as molten lead mixed with battery acid isn't exactly easy to deal with. It also isn't very nice to asphalt.

Now, I'm sure F1 can solve all these problems somehow. I believe the cars in question were pure electrics, not hybrids, so that's one fairly significant difference. Plus who knows what kind of crap they were thrown together with. But it was still funny that this guy got up and claimed that the SCCA was basically doing nothing to embrace this stuff without knowing what particular regions might be doing. And it was interesting to hear about those pitfalls of problems with big electric batteries in race cars. Sure, it's probably no worse than dealing with some of the exotic fuels used in many forms of racing, but it is something that people need to figure out how to deal with.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:07 pm 
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Regenerative braking = front LSD for a new FWD/AWD system.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:16 pm 
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unless its artificially mandated, no team will ever run this, the weight penalty for a such a system would be far too great. This is the problem people don't seem to see with the hybrids that are on the road today, and it will be amplified a million times in F1

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:33 pm 
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With Hydrogen/Magesium or new Generation lithium batteries the weight is minimal. Its the Cost that is prohibative. For many F1 teams, that's not an issue. This may be the true test bed for Hydrogen/Magnesium battery technology.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:34 pm 
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After driving one of the fastest EV cars we've ever had at the EV challenge (Purple '95 Ford Probe with 300 wheel lb ft of torque at 1 rpm), I can say that EV cars are viable, but they have a lot of problems like those talked about already.

Granted, this one had done lapping days at Sebring and competed in the Ft. Myers Tour Event a couple of times, but it was a heavy pig, even for all it's power. Although it's cool, I prefer fossil fuel cars a lot more. - AB

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:34 pm 
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BriceJohnson wrote:
unless its artificially mandated, no team will ever run this, the weight penalty for a such a system would be far too great. This is the problem people don't seem to see with the hybrids that are on the road today, and it will be amplified a million times in F1


Bullshit. They'll just add lightness elsewhere.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:41 pm 
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A bit on the new Magnesium Batteries

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New Rechargeable Magnesium Battery System

A new and revolutionary rechargeable Magnesium battery system has been developed for heavy-load applications such as high performance PEVs. A team of scientists under the direction of Dr. Doron Aurbach at the Chemistry Department of Israel's Bar-Ilan University has developed a rechargeable magnesium battery system that can be recycled many thousands of times with extremely low capacity fading.

This is a "green" and safe battery technology, meaning it is environmentally non-toxic as well as being non-explosive. It is also very lightweight and incredibly cheap to produce. Magnesium is the seventh most abundant metal on earth so it's an ideal material for making into batteries. It has a repoted energy density of 60 Wh/Kg. Unlike nickel-metal-hydride technology, this magnesium battery system demonstrates virtually NO self discharge! This means that once charged, the pack can be left in a charged state for long periods of time without damage. This should make the batteries very attractive to sales outlets as they can sit on a shelf indefinitely without harm unlike most current batteries which have a limited shelf life. Dr. Aurbach's team also reports the battery has an operating temperature of -20C to 60C and possesses a stable almost constant voltage of 1.2V per cell. This is hugely significant as it means that these cells should not suffer from reduced range in colder climates. Lead acid technology can lose half of its practical range or more in sub 0C temperatures. The constant cell voltage of 1.2V per cell matches very well with applications in 6V multiples (5 x 1.2V cells) which includes most EV applications.

Aurbach and colleagues began by using pure magnesium anodes. But magnesium metal is too brittle to fashion into the thin sheets that are needed for these cells. So instead the researchers now use an alloy of magnesium called AZ-31, which is 3% aluminium and 1% zinc. This provides both the flexibility to form into thin sheets as well as incredible durability so that the anodes don't get consumed in the discharge/recharge process.

For the cathode, the team needed to use or create a material full of tiny gaps into which magnesium ions can fit. The researchers had previously discovered that magnesium ions can pass in and out of a type of molybdenum sulphide, called Mo6S8. They make this material from a version containing copper, then replace the copper with magnesium. At first they used electricity to replace the copper with magnesium, but as this is not a practical way to make commercial batteries, they have perfected a way of replacing the copper using a cost efficient chemical reaction instead.

The final ingredient in this new battery is the electrolyte. Aurbach's team uses a polymer gel, an organic liquid, and a chemical that reacts favorably with magnesium facilitating the efficient transfer of the magnesium ions.

The biggest advantage of these new cells are the extremely long life and durability of the cells themselves. Every other battery technology consumes the battery as part of the discharge/recharge process. This gives them an extremely limited shelf life. Lead acid batteries are typically good for a year or less under daily 80% depth of discharge usage. While nickel-metal-hydride cells and lithium-ion cells are supposed to last longer, in reality they are not delivering the thousands of cycles that the chemistry promises. Some only last for a matter of months due to charging and temperature issues, and these chemistries have other problems as well. These new Magnesium cells do no consume themselves as part of their normal cycle process. This means that the cells will last more than 20 years of daily full discharge usage. Your batteries should outlast any vehicle you put them into, and cycle #5000 will deliver just as much range as cycle #50. Imagine batteries that last for decades (instead of months) and never get weak! That's exactly what this technology promises.

Dr. Aurbach said he feels confident that with additional research, the new battery's energy density can be increased to rival or surpass that of lithium-ion! "Lead acid, lithium-ion and nickel-metal-hydride batteries do not have a long enough useful lifespan," said Aurbach. "In addition, there are very important safety and toxicity issues to consider when using those technologies to collect and store megawatts of energy. Because magnesium batteries are non-explosive, non-toxic, do not self-discharge and have a virtually limitless cycle life, they appear to be the best choice over all other existing energy storage systems."

"Magnesium batteries can be engineered for any electrically powered device which might benefit from the availability of a non-portable battery able to undergo thousands of charge/discharge cycles," said Meir Ezra, president and CEO of Idea One, the US company that will be marketing the cells. "Such applications could include electric cars, golf carts, electrically powered forklifts and utility vehicles, and electrically powered scooters and bicycles, to name a few."

Currently, kilo-per-kilo, the new magnesium batteries are capable of generating roughly twice the amount of energy as their lead-acid counterpart, but only half the energy of lithium-ion batteries. Aurbach and his team are currently researching methods to increase the energy density of their magnesium battery so it will produce as much or more power than the lithium-ion batteries which Aurbach helped invent and which now power millions of portable electronic and communications devices throughout the world.

"It took us several decades to come up with a good rechargeable lithium battery - the lithium-ion system," said Dr. Aurbach. "Because we have so many years of experience with Lithium science and battery electrochemistry, I can speculate we may quite quickly develop a magnesium battery with a comparable or greater energy density than is now available from Lithium batteries."

This may just be the radical battery technology breakthrough that we have all been waiting for. Because these cells can handle heavy loads both into and out of them, they are ideal for high performance electric scooters, bicycles, motorcycles, and cars. They also provide rapid recharging capabilities making them a nearly ideal battery system. Hopefully, since this technology is being developed outside of North America, this battery technology will be brought to the international market very rapidly and we will see the benefit of it across the entire EV segment within a very few years.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:04 pm 
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I didn't follow the links all the way down, but I didn't see where it said that the hybrid system would be electric. It could capture the braking energy by compressing a gas or liquid, as the new UPS trucks are doing...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:57 am 
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Wes Eargle wrote:
BriceJohnson wrote:
unless its artificially mandated, no team will ever run this, the weight penalty for a such a system would be far too great. This is the problem people don't seem to see with the hybrids that are on the road today, and it will be amplified a million times in F1


Bullshit. They'll just add lightness elsewhere.


Bullshit, if they could have just "added lightness elsewhere", they would have already done it.

I've not read/heard about the new battery technology, and Carl brings up a valid point about other possible energy storage methods, but the fact is, the energy storage method will add weight, and probably add MORE weight than simply adding more fuel to the car would have. F1 is sensitive to weight to the point that they don't even fill the tanks up all the way, I'd be amazed if they can find a regenerative braking system that would be light enough that it would increase the pit interval with less weight penalty than simply adding more fuel to the fuel tank, be it through batteries or fluid or springs or flywheels or whatever else. Theres a reason gas was chosen to power cars, its a very dense energy storage method, energy/weight of hybrid technology has never been its strength, and probably never will be.

Hybrid technology excells in improving efficiency, i.e. improving % of energy that is in the gas to forward motion by recapturing some of the lost energy in braking. However, the environment in which it excels is one where weight is nowhere near as important as F1, as the cars on the street aren't trying to extract every last bit of grip out of the tires/brakes for lap times, they are just trying to get around town at the posted speed limit. Two ENTIRELY different environments. Fuel economy matters to a point in F1, but weight matters more, thats why you'll sometimes see cars running light fuel loads and adding an extra pit stop to gain an advantage, its that important. If fuel economy were the driving thing, you'd see cars filling up all the way, but they almost never do, so that in case of an unscheduled pit stop, they can add fuel and adapt their pit strategy.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:06 am 
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Marty Howard wrote:
With Hydrogen/Magesium or new Generation lithium batteries the weight is minimal. Its the Cost that is prohibative. For many F1 teams, that's not an issue. This may be the true test bed for Hydrogen/Magnesium battery technology.


ok, so the batteries may be light, what about the electric motor?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:49 pm 
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BriceJohnson wrote:
words


The word of the day is "capacitor" not "battery". Please tell me the name of the team that doesn't use ballast to get up to the 600 kg minimum weight as well. (Other than Kubica's BMW Sauber, that is). The extra mass is a nonissue. The development cost, OTOH ...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:58 pm 
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What the flux are you talking about?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:08 pm 
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Donnie Barnes wrote:
What the flux are you talking about?


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As soon as they brake from any velocity that produces a net loss in speed higher than 88 miles per hour (141.7 kph) they'll produce approximately 1.21 gigawatts of electricity. That'll be some power-to-pass for shizzle.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:27 pm 
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Why can we never have a decent technical discussion on these forums, I regularly do with people all the time on the mazda3forums, I would have thought that these forums would be similar, but eliminate the ricers. Instead, its just this stupid fraternity that does their best to ridicule new members and quash good discussion and suggestions. Apparently you guys are here more to puff up your own egos than to actually dicuss/learn anything. . .

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