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 Post subject: End of track days?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:28 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:29 pm
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Location: Wendell NC
Have you track guys seen this?

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/conte ... 466074.htm


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:05 am 
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:shock:

Anyone want to get together and create our own version of the US where citizenship is based on a test proving you're NOT an idiot?

I guess it was inevitable that lawsuits would follow that wreck, but some of those claims are a bit of a stretch.




Bret.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:08 am 
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We'll just have to wait and see what the effect is... or even if any of the claims get upheld. Will be interesting to follow for sure.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:16 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm
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Quote:
Should the manufacturers be required to qualify owners before selling these cars to them?


No. I say sell the cars and let natural selection sort it out. :P


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:56 am 
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BretLuter wrote:
...but some of those claims are a bit of a stretch.


Not that I agree that the claims should be a basis for a lawsuit, but from a factual point of view, which of the claims sound to be a stretch?

• Keaton Estate - Failure to inform Rudl that he had been having handling problems with the Porsche, and that he had a recent incident where he lost control of the car.

Sounds reasonable. Question is at what point should you be letting your passenger in on issues with the car? "Brakes don't work. Thought you should know" is an obvious one. Where is the line?

• Racetrack owners and operators - Maintaining an unsafe racetrack as a result of inadequate maintenance, signage, and safety controls, and not moving back the concrete barriers after creating the children's play area.

Sounds plausable. Would moving the barriers back changed things? Maybe not.

• Ferrari Owners Club and the flagman - Negligently operating the track day by sending the Ferrari onto the track at the wrong time, violating their own rules by allowing passengers in the cars, failing to disclose Keaton's dangerous driving propensities, and allowing the track day to occur without moving the concrete barriers back to where they belonged.

Some of this sounds like a stretch. But how do you quantify the general theme that they were operating an unsafe event? What is the benchmark for this? It should be clear that risk is involved in events like this. When is the risk excessive or the organizers creating or allowing excessive or preventable risk?

• Ferrari driver - Not paying attention to the flagman, entering the track improperly, driving too slowly, and moving directly into the path of the Porsche.

From all accounts, this sounds like what happened.

• Porsche - Product liability for selling an unsafe car. This falls into three levels of defect.
1. There was some mechanical problem with this particular car that made it handle badly.
2. There are design defects with the Carrera GT that make it a poor-handling car, mainly tail-happy.
3. Third: The Carrera GT is too difficult a car to handle at high speeds for the average driver without instruction.


1. Not Porsches fault on the assumption that if the owner knew something was not right, he should have had the car fixed.

2. Design defect? No. Hard to control at the limit? Maybe it is, but that is not a defect.

3. Hard to drive at the limit? That can apply to most cars. Problem is that the limit is so much higher in these types of cars. Which is not a defect in the car.


My prediction is that it is going to be harder and harder to buy high performance cars without the manufacture trying to offer up instruction to cover themselves.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:34 am 
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Location: Cary, NC
Personally the whole Porsche being defective thing is a stretch. As was said above if he felt something was wrong he should have had it fixed. That puts the owner/driver in the state of being negligent by knowing something might be wrong and still driving it. I will agree the accident could have been avoided if the flagman and slow Ferrari driver did what they were supposed to do.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:46 am 
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This is exactly what I was hinting at in the Blue Devil thread. I figured it would be someone in something cheaper causing the problem, but the problem is now upon us nonetheless. Combine the now high demand for track days with the high availability of insane performing cars and we're going to have more and more spectacular crashes that end up killing people.

At the very least I expect to see a trend toward what you have now when you buy an ATV. They not only offer a "safety course", they basically *pay* you a small amount to take it ($100 if you buy a Yamaha ATV and show up at the school with your own helmet...for some reason it's only a $75 credit toward your helmet if you buy one at the ATV store with your ATV). There's also a long list of checkboxes you must initial and they are required BY LAW to go over with you (stuff like "I won't let anyone under 16 ride it", "I'll always ride it with a helmet", etc).

It'll take a while to get there, but ultimately I feel like litigation will cause a problem for not only track days, but actual club type racing, too. :( It may only be in the form of higher costs due to insurance, but that's a problem in itself.


--Donnie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:04 am 
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Location: Raleigh
Reading that it seem that everything concur to make the accident happen.

On the other end you can pay around $20 and drive the Nurburgring Nordschleife with only the seat belt has requirement?????

http://www.nuerburgring.de/1_nuerburgri ... x.html?L=1

There is webcam on that page where you can see the car going on the track. You need to refresh the page to update the image of the webcam.

The next time I go there I will take the line closest to the fence that no body can read the license plate.

Patrice


Last edited by Patrice Bousquet on Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:26 am 
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blood sucking lawyers. . .

I HATE them, they take the fun out of everything

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:49 am 
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Honestly, I don't blame lawyers as much as I blame the people who bring these cases to attorneys. - AB

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:30 pm 
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BriceJohnson wrote:
blood sucking lawyers. . .

I HATE them, they take the fun out of everything


The lawyers in question are doing their jobs. One can't subpeona people or documents in the discovery phase unless they are cited in the lawsuit. It is easier to drop a defendant than to add one to the suit. This is also indicative of the way that lawsuits are structured. One has to name everyone potentially liable because if that party isn't there, it makes it easier for the other defendants to point in his direction and say that it was his fault.

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