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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 4:05 pm 
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Patrick Wellenius wrote:
The high cost of getting a license was an example. You're right though, to many people $1000 won't make a difference. But those were just some ideas that came to mind. Other countries serve penalties on a percentage basis of your yearly income. Maybe that's a better one...
I think we need a longer training period, better education, more stringent testing, and a longer probationary period with more severe penalties for infractions during that time.

When I got my license about 15 years ago in NJ, the requirements were 6 weeks on a learners permit, pass a written test that didn't require a class, a 4 minute drive in a parking lot with the biggest challenge being parallel parking and one year of probation in which all points accrued were doubled. To say that it was poor preparation for actual driving is a serious understatement.

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 4:35 pm 
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If a company wants to build/sell a car that is fast and cheap and meets the government regulations then they should be able to do that. cars don't kill people, ........

:rant: If we allow the government to regulate the cars we can buy we will all be driving either Hummers if the Republicans stay in office or PRius' if the Democrats get in. The government can never legislate intelligence. They already mandate minimal safety laws which are fine. Even though these are relatively cheap, they are still above the price of most people which will keep the sheer numbers of idiots down. Since it is a Corvette, about 1/2 to 3/4 of the buyers will be waxers who won't drive them. This leaves a small portion of morons that will kill themselves. If it is just themselves then Darwinian principles take over. (or if you prefer un-intelligently designed humans) :rant:

I agree though that we need better driver ed. I have driven in Europe and the drivers there are much better than here, even in Italy. :wink:
You never see anyone on the autobahn talking on the cell in the left lane doing 50.


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:16 pm 
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seriously, were none of you young once? sad truth is you either survive it or you don't. people die in car crashes. some are totally avoidable but somehow still happen. i personally feel if a parent is going to provide a vehicle, then they need to pull there heads out of their assess and provide something more than the public school systems drivers ed program. and while this program may very well be good, are these parents setting a good example? i saw a driver the other day with a cell phone in one hand and the other hand on the door panel. what in the hell she was holding the steering wheel with still baffles me.

i am all for auto manufacturers providing HPDE time. but it is not the $60K car that day in and day out is killing people. sadly, it is a much different socio-economic class of driver.


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:30 pm 
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I dont know what you guys are worried about! Its a freakin' Blue Devil!!

You know the car will get tired by the end of the year and choke out.

ZING!!

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:39 pm 
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DAMN!!!!!!!!!!! :poke: :stick: :lol4: :lol2: :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:41 pm 
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Ryan Holton wrote:
I dont know what you guys are worried about! Its a freakin' Blue Devil!!

You know the car will get tired by the end of the year and choke out.

ZING!!


and besides that Ryan, it will never come out of the garage long enough to make an impact.


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:55 pm 
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I never said the government *should* regulate these cars. The car manufacturers should have some sense, though, and not build cars like this that don't have proper safety gear. When a high enough profile tragedy *does* happen, we're going to get the legislation, like it or not.

Sure, SM has idiots. But they are also 120HP cars with full cages. So they have an infinite amount more safety gear than the Blue Devil and roughly 1/4 the power and only a few hundred pounds less weight. I'd rather be one of the SM idiots in a crowd of 90 other idiots at VIR full than even take *one* lap in a stock Blue Devil at 10/10's. Or 9/10's. Sure, I'd drive one if I had the chance, but I wouldn't take my chances with anything near the limit, and because of that I doubt I would enjoy it any more than SM.

Look how many people have been killed in CGT's already. Now the Blue Devil will have that kind of performance at probably 1/4 the cost. Oh, and there will probably be more of them produced, too. Doesn't sound like a good recipe to me. If you're gonna build it, at least put a cage and fire system in it, dammit.


--Donnie


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 8:02 am 
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Donnie Barnes wrote:
If you're gonna build it, at least put a cage and fire system in it, dammit.
While I agree with you in principle, can you put a cage into a street car and have it be safe? I am under the impression that a cage can be a detriment to safety if the occupants are not wearing a helmet. I know that the new SFI style padding is supposed to meet the same NHTSA crash test deformation standards as factory interior pieces and maybe if a car were designed from day one with a cage in mind it could be done, I am just unsure if that is actually a realistic suggestion.

You know that if you put a cage in, someone will sue because it blocked their vision and 'caused' them to T-bone a bus load of blind orphans. :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 9:58 am 
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While I don't know what the NHTSA will say, I do know people with caged street cars now. I don't see any reason it couldn't be done and done with enhanced safety.


--Donnie


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 10:38 am 
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Maybe having a cage in the car would give people an added sense of security, like having ABS. They would just push harder b/c they themselves feel safer in the car.

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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 1:35 pm 
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Donnie Barnes wrote:
I never said the government *should* regulate these cars. The car manufacturers should have some sense, though, and not build cars like this that don't have proper safety gear. When a high enough profile tragedy *does* happen, we're going to get the legislation, like it or not.

Sure, SM has idiots. But they are also 120HP cars with full cages. So they have an infinite amount more safety gear than the Blue Devil and roughly 1/4 the power and only a few hundred pounds less weight. I'd rather be one of the SM idiots in a crowd of 90 other idiots at VIR full than even take *one* lap in a stock Blue Devil at 10/10's. Or 9/10's. Sure, I'd drive one if I had the chance, but I wouldn't take my chances with anything near the limit, and because of that I doubt I would enjoy it any more than SM.

Look how many people have been killed in CGT's already. Now the Blue Devil will have that kind of performance at probably 1/4 the cost. Oh, and there will probably be more of them produced, too. Doesn't sound like a good recipe to me. If you're gonna build it, at least put a cage and fire system in it, dammit.


--Donnie


Car Makers.......Sense....... :lol4: These are the same genius' that made the Aztek and gave away the market to the Japanese and Koreans. They are going to look at it as if I make it, can I sell it for 20% more than the std. model and if they can't afford it, I'll sell them the std model. The proper safety gear is what will pass NHTSA. Every time NHTSA proposes new safety regulations the same car manufacturers whine and pay lobbyists to bribe the government so they don't have to do it. Don't you think that we would have had anti-lock brakes, air bags seat belts, etc sooner if the car makers added them because they were better? Do you think that people would pay extra for them in enough quantities to justify the cost? These are businesses that are driven (no pun intended) by the market and customer demand. If some idiot buys a Blue Devil and then proceeds to go meet the real thing :twisted: just because he is too stupid to drive within limits of sanity...oh well. Luckily, there are not that many of them who actually drive their cars as opposed to waxing or collecting them for 20 years until some other idiot pays $1M for it at Barrett Jackson so the risk factor is lowered.

The biggest risk for real people who like to race sanely is that insurance for tracks will rise and club's fees because of that and entry fees because of that. The only way to try to keep that in line is to make sure that as clubs we are careful to make sure that when someone is let loose on the track, they are controlled. That does not mean that if you have a high HP car you can't participate, but your instructor should watch your attitude carefully and make sure that the student heeds instructions and is not yahooing.

jMHO. (OMG I can't believe I am making a market arguement) the ACLU is going to revoke my membership.. :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 11:26 pm 
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Rob, I basically agree with what you're saying, but I still think that cars like this will ultimately cost us all somehow. In fact, even if we don't get the truly high profile death that causes legislation, I honestly think that the recent performance trends will cause enough serious accidents at track days and such that the insurance thing *will* become a much more significant issue. What's worse, it's likely to hurt the ability to insure things like autocrosses as well, which is really unfortunate and lame.


--Donnie


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 9:59 am 
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Here is my opinion from being in the insurance industry for the last 23 years( I started as a large Bodily Injury aduster before I was an agent), in random order:

I don't remember having any fatal wrecks with old crappy toyoto's, honda's or even pinto's. Fatalities were in RX-7, corvettes, camaroes. Testosterone makes cars go faster than they should.

The education system needs to be MUCH better. Getting a motorcycle license is a joke, all you have to know is how much alcohol you can consume per hour and still drive. There also needs to be much, much better enforcement. I have NEVER,NEVER seen a young driver receive a ticket for having too many people in their car or driving past 9pm which are both part of the latest laws to make things safer (either they are not getting stopped or they are getting out of the tickets)

In most counties in NC, it is nothing more than an inconveniance to gett a speeding ticket. If you know what you are doing you can get about 3 before there is any real effect on your insurance premium. IMHO the police need to quit worring with speed traps and ticketing me for rolling a stop sign on my residential street were there has never been an accident and start looking for the truly reckless drivers and make the penalty stick.

Ok enough ranting, I need to work.

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:07 am 
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Donnie Barnes wrote:
Rob, I basically agree with what you're saying, but I still think that cars like this will ultimately cost us all somehow. In fact, even if we don't get the truly high profile death that causes legislation, I honestly think that the recent performance trends will cause enough serious accidents at track days and such that the insurance thing *will* become a much more significant issue. What's worse, it's likely to hurt the ability to insure things like autocrosses as well, which is really unfortunate and lame.


--Donnie


Unfortunately, I agree but like most things that involve money or what people want and can pay for, you can't make an effect by controlling the supply side (see drugs, immigration etc) you have to effect the demand side. If no one buys a blue devil, GM won't make them, (see aforementioned Aztek :) ) I think that the real burden is on us as clubs and the tracks to make sure that we are doing a good job screening the people who run with us and our instructors to make sure that if someone is acting like an idiot and driving outside of their limits no matter what car they drive that we modify their behavior or don't let them participate. Unfortunately, racing, HPDEs, even AX to some extent is dangerous and mistakes will happen and people will be killed, hurt, and cars will be damaged, these events just have to be minimized and not just by having people sign a waiver.

The automakers will never stop producing without government intervention and once government intervents, my concern is once you give a government agency and/or insurance companies a foot in the door, it will be a slippery slope to everyone driving Prius' (Prii).

Damn insurance companies will be the death of all of us :x

Rob


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:51 am 
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street tires suck
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I still want one. :D :twisted:

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