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 Post subject: Mold, Mildew and Drainage (Home)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:13 am 
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The termite inspector found mold in the crawl space of our house yesterday. He believes that the issue is from water that pools under the house. Has anyone had this problem? I would like to know if I have any options short of a major regrading of my backyard to avoid water running under the house. Thanks.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:35 am 
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I'm not a expert but I've had to deal with this in 2 houses now. Here's a rundown, in my opinion, of stuff to consider in a house with troublesome crawlspace moisture -- somewhat from easiest to hardest. There is never any "magic bullet" to fixing the problem in my experience. Both houses just "have high ground water levels" and it took a variety of stuff to fix them.

1. Check your gutters and gutter extensions -- get the water min 8' from house and going downhill. Add gutters where they don't exist!
2. Fix the grade near the house where possible.
3. I ran a 20" floor fan in my last house's crawlspace for 6 months before I sold it. Just getting a little airflow dried it out a lot! Consider a door-mounted forced ait fan (these are band-aid solutions)
4. If the water is concentrated in one corner of the crawlspace, dig down 6-12", knock a hole in the foundation wall, and insert pipe. Cover both ends in gravel.
5. If water is all over the place (like my new house), bend over. Call someone to dig a network of trenches under the house, drop in perf pipe, fill with gravel, and connect to the pipe exiting the crawlspace.
6. Run your crawlspace plastic all the way to the foundation walls (yes they do this now) and seal it to the wall.
7. Worst case, seal the crawlspace to the house, move the insulation to the crawlspace walls, and HVAC the crawlspace. Yes they do this now too!

Just a layman's opinions. I'm sure some of these suggestions are even controvertial, and I'm sure there are more!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:53 am 
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Mike's solutions are pretty spot on.

There is not EASY solution to a problem like this. Water is a VERY powerful thing.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:02 am 
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Ryan Holton wrote:
Water is a VERY powerful thing.


Yes, very similar to my rear end after mexican on Saturday ;) - AB

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:44 pm 
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I agree with Mike's solutions as well, first you must get the water as far away as possible. As my friend who is a building inspector says: water runs downhill, make sure that the house is not downhill. To seal off moisture (not water you have to remove/reroute water) Add a 10 mil plastic vapor barrier, seal it to the foundation with mastic and cover with a couple inches of crushed stone to hold in place. If the crawl space is unheated, be sure there is adequate ventilation.

OH YAH, be sure the termite inspector doesn't also sell mold and mildew removal services as well!
When I bought my house I had one of the "name" termite inspectors check my house. He said I needed a full treatment to the tune of ~ $3K+ yearly inspection/rechargings. I called a local company for a second opinion before spending that much money, and when I gave the owner the address he said "I can come out and retreat it, but I just treated that house 2 years ago and it's good for 20 years! Any inspector should have seen the holes we drilled in the piers"

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Last edited by Chuck Frank on Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:56 pm 
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Chuck Frank wrote:
I agree with Mike's solutions as well, first you must get the water as far away as possible. As my friend who is a building inspector says: water runs downhill, make sure that the house is not downhill. To seal off moisture (not water you have to remove/reroute water) Add a 10 mil plastic vapor barrier, seal it to the foundation with mastic and cover with a couple inches of crushed stone to hold in place. If the crawl space is unheated, be sure there is adequate ventilation.


I did what Chuck stated above at my ex-girlfriends house. She had water running underneath her deck that ran into the crawl foundation, and leaked into the crawl. I dug out against the foundation, and exposed as much cinder block as possible. I let the it dry overnight (no rain) then sealed the block with a concrete sealer. Then covered the entire area under the deck with 10 mil plastic, and attached it high up on the block (after refilling the dirt trench). I then covered the plastic with white river rock. I think all the materials might have cost her $60 but was well worth it. The crawl was very dry after that.

The sucky deal was working under a deck that was 2.5 feet above the ground at it's highest point. I looked like a creature from the black lagoon when I got done :) - AB

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:03 pm 
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Aaron Buckley wrote:


I did what Chuck stated above at my ex-girlfriends house. She had water running underneath her deck that ran into the crawl foundation, and leaked into the crawl. I dug out against the foundation, and exposed as much cinder block as possible. I let the it dry overnight (no rain) then sealed the block with a concrete sealer. Then covered the entire area under the deck with 10 mil plastic, and attached it high up on the block (after refilling the dirt trench). I then covered the plastic with white river rock. I think all the materials might have cost her $60 but was well worth it. The crawl was very dry after that.

The sucky deal was working under a deck that was 2.5 feet above the ground at it's highest point. I looked like a creature from the black lagoon when I got done :) - AB


Hey Rich, I know where you can find an experienced crawl space sealer! :twisted:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:03 pm 
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Aaron Buckley wrote:
my ex-girlfriends house


All that work, and she dumped you anyways, huh?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:14 pm 
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MikeWhitney wrote:
Aaron Buckley wrote:
my ex-girlfriends house


All that work, and she dumped you anyways, huh?


Then sold the house :shock:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:21 pm 
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Dealing with something similar in my "new" 22 year old house. I'm certainly no expert, but have done a bunch of research, and done a bunch of stuff that seems to be working. Mike's suggestions are similar to what I'd recommend:

1. Look to see if water is "seeping" up through the soil, or running in via cracks in the foundation, around access doors, pipe holes, etc... Seal this stuff up to prevent "mass entry" of water. I used a couple bags of quick set concrete to patch small and not so small holes.

2. Clean, Check and fix your gutters. Install pipes to direct water away from the house. My gutters needed complete replacement, as they were galvanized and had rusted through in a number of places.

3. Allow water that enters a good way to exit. My house had drain tile added along the lower foundation wall 5 years ago (inside the crawlspace), with a sump pump in the lowest corner to pump out the water that entered. When I bought the house, there were still moisture problems, so I had the seller pay for addition of drain tile around the rest of the foundation walls as well. A "good-ole-boy" quoted $1k for this work using standard drain tile. We used Regional Waterproofing who charged $1500 using the latest and greatest drainage mat stuff. I wouldn't have payed for the more expensive stuff myself, but I wasn't paying.

4. All that should be left now is moisture entering from the vents, and evaporating from the soil:
a) install heavy plastic over the ground, covering most of the surface.

b) do a) plus install some sort of fan venting. Be careful though, as bringing in outside "moist" air into a cool crawlspace can sometimes make the problem worse becuase the warm moist air will condense on cool pipes, wood, etc.... I didn't do this.

c) If the problem is not TOO severe (as mine was, and this came recommended from an installer of the more expensive "professional" options), do a) plus close and seal the vents and any other air leaks to the outside and into the house. Install a dehumidifier in the crawlspace, draining outside and away from the foundation. Whirlpool "xxxxx50" came recommended for this from somebody who professionally. I got the xxx70 (from Lowes) becuase it is somewhat more efficient. This method is a reasonable fix, so long as the dehumidifier only has to run some of the time (they cost a bit to run), which is of course govererned by the amount of moisture evaporating. I took it as a $250 experiment. One other note on this option: some soils may excrete toxic Radon gas. Sealing the crawlspace will not allow this to escape easily. This is not a severe issue in this area, but I will be testing for Radon on occasion, just in case.

d) for more severe cases, have a professional company come out and install a sealed crawlspace system. Assuming you do not have new construction, these systems will seal the floor and lower 90% of the walls from the air in the crawlspace. In most cases, they will install a dehumidifier as well, and chemical spray to kill any molds that currently exist. These systems also provides a Radon vent, so that's not an issue with this system. This is a thorough proceedure and carries a warranty, but comes at a price. My crawlspace, which is probably <1400sf quoted at $7000 for this option, and that's with part of the drainage already installed. This is why I'm experimenting with the dehumidifier.

My results so far:
starting humidity in the crawlspace, during the "dry" weather was 80% RH. Within 2 days of running the dehumidifier, this dropped to 61%, and didn't increase with the humid weather. Since installing the new gutters, my sump pump has not run, indicating that water is not penetrating up through the soil. I no longer have standing water. I still haven't completed sealing all the gaps and holes, and have only closed, not sealed, the vents. I plan to do this in the next couple days. My goal, and I'm pretty confident it is possible with my current setup, is to maintain very close to 50% RH with the dehumidifier running <25% duty cycle. It will take a few weeks to dry the top soil and wood in the crawlspace to get stable. At this rate, this solution will cost ~$15/mo to maintain, as opposed to $7k up front (which still has a dehumidifier to run, but it would run much less often as the soil would be completely sealed out). That $15 will be somewhat negated by savings in heating and cooling costs as well, as my crawlspace is no longer exchanging hot air in the summer and cold air in the winter.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do. FYI, there are a bunch of resources on the web and some recent research into the controversial issue of sealed crawlspaces. If you need some links, let me know and I'll try to see if I can find what I used to make some of my decisions.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:38 pm 
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My 2 cents (which agrees with most of above and some slight differences)...

Previous house had a problem with the drainage system that is around the footer. It was not draining very well and the "hole" that Mike mentions above that allows water to drain out was letting water in if it was wet enough that it couldn't drain away from the house fast enough. I personally am not a fan of the "hole" method unless you have excellent drainage from around the footer. My solution was to seal the hole and put in a sump pump. In my case I should have also tried to solve the problem with the footer drainage, but it was a complex one.

So in general...

1. Regrade to drain away from house
2. Sump pump if needed
3. Vapor barrier down (seal this to walls of crawlspace and tape loose ends together for a complete seal).
4. Ventilate to dry out (fan as Mike mentions works great).

Regarding vapor barriers. It seems there are two theories on how to put them down. Some believe in the "loose" sheet method with a gap around the perimeter. The other is to seal it up. The loose method allows the ground to "breath". I think this is a load of crap. "Breath" to me means "allow moisture to escape into your crawlspace". I have done both and with it sealed all the way around, you will be amazed at how much drier and less musty it is.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:53 pm 
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Richard Casto wrote:
Regarding vapor barriers. It seems there are two theories on how to put them down. Some believe in the "loose" sheet method with a gap around the perimeter. The other is to seal it up. The loose method allows the ground to "breath". I think this is a load of crap. "Breath" to me means "allow moisture to escape into your crawlspace". I have done both and with it sealed all the way around, you will be amazed at how much drier and less musty it is.


Ditto!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:31 pm 
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We did a complete remodel of the house we bought in 2000. All the way to the studs. New plumbing, electrical, HVAC, etc. As part of it, we also converted the previously unfinished 2/3 of the basement to conditioned living space. There was adjacent "crawlspace" to a good bit of that (the original grade left this area very short and basically traditional crawlspace beside what is a finished basement). We went with our contractor's recommendation to seal the crawlspace and make it conditioned space. Best thing I ever did, I think.

We also had the drain barrier system put in that you can get for subterranean walls. You jackhammer out a small trench along the wall and they lay in a plastic drain that feeds to a pipe going outside. The drain is then mortared in place. Then you run thick plastic sheet up the walls and they have some special material to join the sheets. Theory there is if anything seeps through that wall it hits the plastic (which is spaced a bit off the wall) and runs down and into the drain. That's great for areas where you can't really even get to the *other* side of the wall to seal it like Aaron did, but it's probably similar to what Dustin is talking about and is pretty expensive.

Also note that I was told by the health department inspectors in Chatham County that the new policy in NC is that ANY "drain" in NC that's in a house or outbuilding or whatever must go to the septic system (or sewer). I don't believe that includes things like gutters outside your house, but I believe it would be open to interpretation inside. I think things like these wall drainage systems are okay, but if you were to put in a floor drain or something in a basement (like in concrete), they're likely gonna say that can't just drain outside since you *could* wash your hands in it. That's right, a hand wash sink out in a barn can't just drain on the ground. You *used* to be able to do that, but no more. If they see it at all they can now make you remove it or pipe that drain to a septic system, too. There is no grandfather rule. At least as far as the Chatham County inspectors are concerned. :( That's pretty annoying since it's okay to just wash your hands under the spigot outside your house (and thus the drain water hits the ground), but if you were to set a small sink under it you are in violation. Sort of off topic, but something to think about. I'm sure inspectors vary from county to county on how they handle this, too.


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 Post subject: Right
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:24 pm 
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All you guys are right.
95% of the water problems in this part of the country are SURFACE WATER. That means you gotta get rid of it by routing it away from the house.

I used a LOT of 4" flex-drain, connected every gutter down-spout to the system and routed everything out to the street. Also added a couple of 9" catch-basins and connected them to the system. When it rained, the water poured out of the 4" like crap through a goose!

Put down polyethelene sheeting over about 90% of the crawlspace. Didn't tape it or anything, but did overlap it and staked it with u-shaped wire things.

Result: ZERO moisture intrusion and a 19% (as I recall, but not sure about that) moisture-content reading on the floor joists after 6 months. Whatever the reading was, the home inspector said it was reeeel good for a Cary house in the Preston area.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:58 pm 
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Oh, oh oh!

If you're putting in that black 4" drainage pipe, be careful! In my recent experience, much of what is out there is crap. It'll get compacted quite easily if there is *any* traffic over it, even if buried 12" or more. Shop wisely.


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