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But the Datsun PL510 copied the BMW 1600 and 2002 for suspension. I miss my 510. It was not the fastest by any means but it was great fun to drive. With upgrades to springs shocks and swaybars it was real fun to drive.

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George Bright Member # 141
One of the youngest of the old farts.
Yes I voted against you joining the club.

Regardless of what some might say about it having a trailing arm suspension (who cares anyway? it works...) Miles, I think you should do it. I mean, short of throwing severe money at it, it's never going to be a *Nationally* competitive BSP autocrosser. But I don't think you care about that.

I've driven Jimmy's car a number of times now and I too am now a firm believer in the M3 goodness. I've got my fair share of track miles under my belt and should the Integra ever sell, an E36 M3 is at the top of my list of things I'd replace it with. It's the best of all possible worlds. It's fancy and nice inside. It looks good. It goes like stink and stops even better. And the way they handle...well, you pretty much just point it wherever you want it to go, and boom, it goes there.

Jimmy's car rides a little hard for a street car, sure (it's got some sort of Turner coilover suspension kit on it) but I bet it rides no worse than your C4. So for street use I think it'd be a heck of a fun car to have.

I'm pretty sure I once heard Peter Krause claim he thought the E36 M3 was among the most capable track cars he knew of. Peter's driven a lot of seriously good stuff. Something to think about.

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

Actually, I wasn't using the criteria "that everyone has one." It's more the criteria of "who has one." At the track, everyone doesn't have one. But I did think it was interesting that for a great many of the best, most experienced track instructors and race drivers that I have met, the BMW was the car they chose for HPDEs/Solo 1 and general track use.

I don't have enough data to say that it is even generally true or to comment on what car is most commonly driven by track instructors with more than say, 10 years experience. I was just relaying some things I had observed. I also realize you can't place too much emphasis on that sort of thing. Some well known, excellent instructors drive things I would consider a nightmare to drive on track!

Miles

I'll just add to the fanboi postings here.

I LOVE my e36 m3. It's been perfectly reliable since I bought it in january, a 99 coupe with 56k miles on it. It now has 63k and 6 events on it. About 1/4 of the millage on it is probably at the track. No mechanical issues thus far. Oil changes, brake fluid, rotors, pads. It's bone stock except I did my rear strut mounts (100 bucks or so), tranny mounts (no money shifts please 80 bucks), and an exhaust so I can hear the damn thing on track .

I came from a chipped S4 which means 400 ft lbs of tq and I really dont miss it anymore, certainly not after even my first track event. Another friend with an s4 recently picked up a low millage 95 for track duty as well. The car is just tough to beat IMO. I will say that anyone that says there isnt much difference between the 3.0 and 3.2 motors is crazy. Both our cars are stock and have very similar millage and my car seems to have substantially more tq. They are pretty comparable on the top end.

Whatever you do, KEEP IT STOCK. At least for a while. You will be dumbfounded at the cars abilities. I would say get a set of non staggered wheels for track use and a nice set of track pads. The car will really do anything and everything you ask of it.

If you have any other questions I'd be happy to answer!

OK, thats the end of my bimmer loving rant.

Miles

Ever since I rode with Peter Krause in his buddies lightweight M3 I've loved the car. Wonderful handling, more than aceeptable power. A completely well done package.

Here are the downsides as I see them. It appears, from riding with folks, that it is quite easy to drive the car to say, 9/10ths of its capability. Ringing out the final tenth though, takes a great deal of driving talent. Hower, 9/10ths in a BMW is faster than most other cars out there!

Also, when you own one of the M cars everyone just expects you to go fast so doing so gets you no "points". Its just assumed you will be quick.

For both of those reasons I don't think I will ever own one as a track car. I enjoy, perhaps too much, the challenge of making a low hp ill handling car work well. I enjoy turning a fast lap time in said car because its not expected. Yeah, it strokes my ego when I do it.

But Miles we know you are a fine driver and I'd say pull the trigger on this. They are wonderful cars!

Ron

OK, I'm posting to ask some similar questions, but not exactly. I am thinking about selling my truck and using the proceeds to buy a car that I can use as a sort of daily driver/track car/aX car when the Jims put me out of reach for class win. My first fleeting thought was Porshe 928, but I never liked them even though now they are cheap, but like Robert Plank said a lot of shit happens to them and they are expensive.
He then went to my next thought which was BMW. Unlike Miles, I am not looking in M3 land, but in normal 3 Series land. Mid 90's 325/318. I am just starting my research so any tips on where to go for more info, any advice on which models to look for or avoid? Does 2 door or 4 door matter?

Thanks

i have owned a 97 bmw 3 series for about a month now. i like it. it's quick. i think it will make a great autoX car. i would never buy a new one. mechanically it seems unsurpassed but the interior is hard plastic and quirky electronic gizmo's. it rattles and creaks. not to mention a snowflake on the button for the air conditioning. i wonder why no one has mentioned the infinity's or the lexus's here so far. i thought i saw where an infinity was pushing 330 HP. that seems almost Corvette-esque with more people room. just my uninformed opinion.

Be forewarned, this is a long post, but I'm hoping Miles (and maybe others) will find it useful.

I've owned three E36 BMW's, including a '93 325is, a '96 M3, and my current '96 328is. From a maintenance/cost of ownership perspective, I have zero complaints. The biggest related problem is the BMW service shops charge 1 hour labor to check a fault code (Check Engine light), and the OBDII (96+) E36's seem to light 'em up for any of seemingly thousands of different emissions-related reasons. It pays to buy (or know someone who owns) one of the Peake code readers for BMW, the kind that plugs into the diagnostics port under the hood. Autozone's free code check is worthless, as their reader outputs too general a problem from the OBDII port (under the dash). This didn't really become an issue until my current E36 ('96 328is) - I had only one or two CEL's between the two previous E36's, but I bought my 328is with a burnt out CEL and 3 stored codes, and after correcting those it has lit up several times for different reasons over the (less than 1 year) time I've owned it.

Like others posted, expect to change the water pump to one with a metal impeller ASAP, and the radiator tends to break at the neck where the upper hose mounts anytime after ~80kmi. Each time I've bought an E36, the first thing I do is buy and install new water pump, hoses, belts, and radiator (Bimmerworlds aforementioned $250 cooling kit). I've also heard of and found consistent problems with the power steering hoses coming apart at the fittings after ~6-8 years or 80+ kmi, and yes, BMW uses crappy hose clamps that need to be replaced w/plain 'ol worm drive hose clamps whenever you replace any hose.

Otherwise, common items that need replacement w/80+ kmi (sometimes less) are rear shock mounts, front control arm bushings, and rear trailing arm bushings - the RTAB replacement requires a special tool. I disagree about keeping the stock shocks/struts on an E36 with any more than about 40 kmi - the stock Boge units are crap and should be replaced w/Koni's or Tokicos (non-M only), or better yet, spend a little more and get Ground Control coilovers - the best bang for the buck upgrade out there for E36's, as they actually increase much needed suspension travel in the front.

For a daily driver, an M3 sedan is hard to beat - plenty of performance for the street, a use-able back seat, great handling, and very reasonable comfort. Contrary to popular belief, I've found the ride more comfortable with the much higher spring rates associated with a GC coilover set up than w/stock suspension. The problem is the stock front struts lack travel and are too soft, resulting in immediate bump stop engagement when turning or over larger bumps.

The best part about E36's, especially w/GC coilovers, is driving one on track. I haven't driven a lot of cars on track, but when I went from a '93 MR2 to a '96 M3, the difference was almost unfathomable. The M3 (just like my 328is) is unbelievably intuitive on track - like Karl said, just think about where you want to go and the car goes there quickly, no fuss, no muss. It's impossible to overstate how confidence inspiring a GC-suspended E36 is on track. I haven't experienced the 9/10ths vs. 10/10ths issue mentioned by Ron - although I feel I've driven my M3 and 328is over 9/10ths on track, I guess maybe I haven't. FWIW, I can say I've 4-wheel drifted most of the turns at VIR in both the M3 and 328is and have never come close to feeling like I didn't have complete control. One time I came up on a (potentially much faster car) entering the uphill esses in the rain, and the driver tried to carry more speed only to go into a spin while cresting the esses - I was on his bumper when he started coming around and had no choice but to gently lift, a big no-no in the rain while turning and unweighting simultaneously. My 328is stepped out a little bit, then just went exactly where I pointed it, around the right side of the spinning car heading track left. Experiences like that are likely to keep me in an E36 for track events for a long time.

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Keith Q.
2008 Top Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmX8XuZ_DCo&NR=1

Not sure I'd agree with that. I have no gripes with mine on the road, and I've never heard anyone ever say that until now.

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If we are alone in the universe, the universe aimed very low and settled for very little - George Carlin

Well, there are 7 BMWs in my family and I have numerous friends with them and they all remark about how expensive the cars can be to keep in top form. They are mechanically tough, but the electircs, electronics and features are not built to the same standards and can be expensive to replace, which is often the only option. My friend Ed has lost a couple of power window actuators on his 4 year-old e46. My brother had a faulty airbag light that needed a special tool to reset - $75. On track car, you'd most likely let those things slide, but on a street car, you would fix them.

The message I was trying to convey is that BMWs are built as a luxury car with a lot of features. Depreciation may let you afford one now, but remember there is always lurking the reason the car was an expensive luxury car. If you think it will be cheap to own and keep in top shape, you could be in for a lot of disappointment.

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Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

Okay, I'll buy that. I would say anyone thinking these cars (or any other high-line euro car) are going to be cheap to keep must live in a cave. If you can set aside $1,000-$1,500 per month to keep it in top shape, you SHOULD be fine. If you don't want to swallow high maintenamce costs, get something else. I still say they make GREAT road cars, though. For Miles' situation, if you want a 4 door street/track car, th M3 can't be beat. I would look at a IS300 or G35 also, but not in this price range.

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If we are alone in the universe, the universe aimed very low and settled for very little - George Carlin

Good GOD. Maybe for a track car... I probably put that much into my 95 325i in SIX months. In fact, come to think about it, my E36 has been my most reliable and least costly to operate used vehicle I have ever owned. My Miata, Integra, Suburban, CRX, E30 - all have had more frequent and more costly failures.

And I dunno what you guys are talking about with the "luxury" content on mid-90's BMWs. Last I checked a Kia Optima came with about as many features.

I guess I have been lucky ... over 80k miles and 5 years all I have had are cooling system problems (bad rad, bad water pump). Everything else has been very minor.

Is a $5000 BMW going to cost more in maintenance than a $5000 Honda? Probably. But it will be cheaper than a $2000 Honda? Absolutely, assuming you're doing work yourself.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

I have to agree with Mike. Maybe if I took the car to the stealership for every single thing that went wrong I might spend that much every 6 months. Only thing that I've ever had a need to fix immediately was a seperated plastic radiator, and that would have cost no more than $200 or so in parts for a perfectly good factory replacement, except I'm an idiot and just had to buy a fancy aluminum one instead. I've had the leaky power steering hoses, funky door microswitches wearing out, and the brake light switch wearing, but all of those between $5-$15 to fix. Everything else has been standard maintenence you'd do to any other car, regular oil/fluid/belt changes.

Um, Mike, that wasn't me. I didn't put a dollar figure on it.

Does a Kia have an onboard computer that goes out? A self diagnostic system is notoriously faulty and requires expensive tools to access? Does it have an LED panel in the dash that looses pixels? VANOS motors that rattle? Come on Mike, BMW sells cars in no small part because of the features they contain. I am glad you have had nothing but luck with yours, but acting like those features might not be a problem to a second or third owner is a little bit of wishful thinking. The more stuff in a car the more things to go wrong.

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Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

Sorry, put 1 too many 0's in there. I meant to say $100-150 per mo.

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If we are alone in the universe, the universe aimed very low and settled for very little - George Carlin