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There is a big difference in Retail price between the three on a older van with low mileage. NADA price is 50% more than Kelley and Edmunds is 22% more than Kelley. Naturally the dealer has used NADA.

How can they be that different in price? Which one do you think is correct?

They are within a few hundred dollars on a newer van with low mileage.

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Mitch Moore

NADA--National Auto Dealers Association

They are going to list products in their favor. Of course if you were trading one in they would use Kelly BB value. That's how they try to make money.

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'99 Mk IV Jetta VR6 now claimed by the better half.

'90 Miata A-package, Floats like a butterfly and buzzes like a BEE with loudspeakers.

Personally, I like Edmunds TMV on used and new cars. They actually do some kind of research to see what prices similar vehicles are selling for in a given geographical area.

Ditto what Doug said. If you're really interested in this van, aim your negotiations at the TMV price or lower. If they don't want to deal, you don't want to deal with them.

Like most dealerships, if you produce the Edmunds TMV price, they'll immediately try to discount the validity of Edmunds, because they're more consumer focused. Expect it and ignore it.

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Tom Freeman
'98 M3/4/5 | '93 Spec3 325i | '12 TSX sport wagon | '03 Tahoe
Team Silver Bullets '91 240SX

Chuck on Donna's computer:
I would go in with checkbook in hand, find the used car manager (NEVER deal with a salesman at a dealership, he's not the one who can say yay or nay, he will go to the sales manager with your offer and they'll debate how much more they can squeeze out of you while you sit there.). Walk up to him with their ID # off the car, and say I am ready to buy this vehicle right now for $XXX! I will not pay a penny more, take it or leave it!!! Tell him you'd prefer to buy from him, but if he's not interested in selling it right now, you have looked at another similar vehicle elsewhere, and you'll be driving one or the other by tomorrow!
Be prepared to walk, don't show any weakness or willingness to negotiate!!! If he says No, or trys to talk you up on it, ignore his sales speil like you've heard it all before, take one of his cards write your offer and phone number on the back, hand it to him and tell him if he changes his mind in the next couple hours give you a call. Tell him don't bother calling unless it's to say he'll take your offer. NEVER EVER hand over your driver's license before doing this!!!!
If your offer is a fair one, and it's not a top selling vehicle they just put on the lot he'll take it, especially if it's the last week of the month (Always the best time to shop for a car). Most new car dealerships will not keep a used car on their lot more than 30 or 60 (their own brand and a creampuff popular model) days before it's sent to auction. If it's a private used car lot all will depend on how hungry the owner is and how many bills are due. Carfax should tell you if the car has been thru auction.
Good luck!

I've used a similar version of Chuck's method before on buying a used car. Here, timing is everything, and to some degree, so is how popular the car is you are wanting to purchase.

Two years ago I needed a car to replace the green Dodge Intrepid that I totalled after hitting a deer (on the way home from the THSCC Christmas party). Shawn and Brenda gave us a ride home that night (Thanks again Shawn). Anyway.. I actually wanted a 97 Intrepid, the last of the old big body style (call me stupid). At that time, the new body styles were much more popular. I found the car at a Leith lot and went shopping on Dec 26. It was about 20 degrees and very windy. Eventually a salesman came out. I'm sure they debated over who was going to go out in the cold and dark to see the only customer on the lot. I wasn't even going to ask the guy about the specific car I was looking for. I would much have preferred to "stumble" over it. Well, I couldn't find it, so I had to ask him where it was located.

Funny thing was.... we looked everywhere and he couldn't find it either. So, into the dealership we went and I asked him "Can't you look it up on the computer and find out where this car is?" (no he couldn't) Long story short.... supposedly a salesman had taken it home and they didn't know when it would be back. Okay... I asked... when salesman and what's his number? Now he actually does look it up on the computer and says it's on another lot. Well, "Which one?" I asked. Eventually he told me and I said "Thanks, I'll go look at it." The salesman, sensing that I was interested in the car (which was obvious) wanted to start talking numbers. I told him politely that there was no way I could do that until I had seen the car. I wanted to slap him for even asking that at this point. Ironically, he wanted to go with me to the other dealership. He must have just wanted to protect his commision and there certainly weren't any other customers on the lot that night.

Anyway, we went to the other dealership.. another Leith dealership of course. We got there and they couldn't find the car either. At this point, I was both laughing at the hilarity of this, and their seeming inability to find their own cars, and a bit angry that I might have now spent two hours just trying to find a silly car that might be a piece of junk, which they might not have. After being told everything from "the car has been sold" to "it's not here" to a few other things... I finally asked for the specifics enough times and some guy actually insisted that the car was on the lot. But where? was the question nobody could answer.

It wasn't on the lot in the rows of cars for sale. It was stuck behind a fence, in the dark, waaay away from the shiny newer ones. They were either ashamed to put this thing on the lot with the rest of the cars, or were trying not to sell it for some reason.

Anyhow, the car was immaculate with only 30,000 miles. Not bad for a 5 year old car. The Carfax rept checked out fine and even the city where the car was inspected was consistent with the "story" I got on the previous owner from the dealer.... which I never believe anyway.

But.. I wrote a figure down on my business card, and told the guy to call me if he could sell it for that. I made it clear that this was not the price for the car- it was the value of the check I would write for the car- including tax, license, tags, dealer this or that, paper floormats, or whatever else he wanted to call it. He needed to write down that figure in the "grand total" column and work backwards from that. I didn't care if he charged me $1000 for the car and called the rest "dealer prep." That figure was all there was.

I told him I understood if he didn't want to sell it for that but to call me if he changed his mind. It was about $2400 off the asking price and just a little above NADA wholesale for an "average" car. I truly didn't figure I'd hear from this guy for at least a day or two if at all. At 9:05 the next morning (I think he got in at 9:00) , he called me. That was funny because his first words were... "well, I think it's time for a counter-offer". I laughed, and after he called me again, and maybe even a third time, we worked it out. I think I might have caved in $200, which got me to the price I was really willing to pay anyway. I wondered when it was all over if I had offered him too much! But it was a fair price to me and a price I felt good about. I don't expect something for nothing, but to get a nice car for a price I like to pay from a dealer is not something I expected to happen.

After we agreed on the price, I was waiting for something else to go wrong. But honestly, it didn't. I took a certified check for a few hundred less than our agreed up on price, and the rest in cash. That gave me last minute negotiating room for any "surprises." But from there, it all went fine and the car has been fantastic, even for a Dodge.


So.. if you are still reading.. a few tips:

1) Write down the amount your check will be on the back of the business card you give the salesman- and BE CLEAR that this is the GRAND TOTAL for everything, not just the price of the car. Tell him you'll give him a certified bank check, even if they don't require it.

2) Truly be willing to walk away.

3) Leave yourself a tiny margin to negotiate. I left myself about $200 on a roughly $6000 car (that they were asking about $8500 for). A salesman needs to have something to brag about and something to get a sense of victory over. Let him have the seeds for a great fish story.

4) Pick a time when sales are slow and needed. The last week of the month, the quarter, or even better, the year.

5) Cold winter nights after Christmas might be a good time .

6) Out of the way dealerships might be a better place than those on the beaten path to shop.

7) If you pick a really popular car, in a popular color, that everybody else wants and they are hard to find.... this aint' going to work so well.

Be sure to run a Carfax report. Buyer beware and all the usual caveats apply. Don't believe anything a salesman says about the history of the car. Take it at face value.

9) Your offer should be a cash offer. If you can't pay cash, get the money from somewhere else. Don't even think of financing it from the dealer.

If you find a special, one of a kind car, located five states away, you have to use a somewhat different method.....

Good luck in your shopping ventures... and as always, YMMV.

Miles

Mitch when I was shopping for my truck I finally gave up on figuring out what price was "right." I had a very specific vehicle in mind - a 2001 diesel Excursion.

So I monitored the prices nationwide (mostly via autotrader.com and eBay) and figured out what a fair price would be, plus or minus $1000. When I spotted one at Carmax (in Orlando) that was well priced and in good shape, I pulled the trigger.

FWIW.

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

Edmunds has some articles on their web site that offer a good amount of insight into what's going on "behind the scenes" of a dealership and are a good addition to what Miles and Chuck wrote which is a quick summary of how to get your way and be the one in power instead of the dealership minions. Nice write-up guys!

The key words above are "NADA wholesale". So where did you get the wholesale price? I already have an ok deal on a new cargo van from the Crossroads Ford commercial truck manager. He offered invoice over the phone and indicated that he would go lower to get the sale. I also have a local user car dealer that is looking for a low mileage newer van at the Greensboro auction tomorrow and Kelly, Edmunds and NADA are all in agreement with what it is worth.

Where I am having a problem is with a 1997 Econoliner E250 cargo van with 23,676 miles. The dealer is located in Charlotte and they have it priced at $10,300. The retail price is NADA $10,375, Edmunds $8,484 and Kelly (supprisingly) $6,940. The price difference comes from the large variation in the mileage premium each service gives the van. The dealer has 5 or 6 vans just like it with 23k to 40k miles on them.

I am real tempted to buy one if I can get a good deal and use some of the money I save to upgrade the suspension in the BMW.


One just like it with 29k miles just sold on eBay for $11100.

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Mitch Moore

The reason that there is such a price discrepency is that vehicles over 3 years old are considered "poison" to a new car dealership. They don't usually even want them on thier lot (probably situation with Mile's example) If they have several similar it was probably a fleet trade in deal they took to make the new vehicles sale. It's a supply and demand market on such a vehicle and so much more than just mileage affects the price, such as body/interior condition, was it used by an individual for personal use or was it in commercial/fleet use, what options/additions are on it, what is the regional situation (4 WD trucks sell much better up north, convertibles much better in the sunbelt) for there to be much pricing uniformity nationwide. A low mileage van for example could be worth a lot more if it was used by a soccer mom and was a garage queen than if it was used by a delivery service where it spent a lot of time driven by Mario wannabes on short stop and go trips with a lot of idling time in between. In 1980 I bought a 4 year old Chevy cargo van with low mileage than had been owned by a sorta hotrodder before he traded it in. He had put in headers, Hurst shifter, and a new heavy duty clutch. The clutch was missadjusted so it was hard to shift without grinding. The dealer that took it on trade sold it at auction to the service station/part time used car dealer I bought it from. I bought it for 1500.00 cash on the spot.

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

Once in a great while, you might actually get the salesman to show you the NADA figures. Banks will always be happy to give you the loan value. I'm told they typically have NADA books on hand, and their loan values are often based on NADA wholesale... though not identical. If you have a friend that is a used car dealer, he might help you out. For shopping convenience though.. don't agonize too much over the NADA value. The important thing is to find a value that you think is fair for the car.

I typically call at least two banks to get loan values as a reference. That is usually a value that is much closer to wholesale than retail.

Here is an interesting article on NADA, Kelley etc.. Make of it what you wish considering the source but I thought it was at least interesting.

http://www.vmrintl.com/Usedcars/Referen ... lained.htm

Miles

Miles that was a very interesting article. I've had the same experience as the article -- the KBB price has been by far the most dealer-friendly price listed. It's so high on retail that anyone who pays KBB retail must be a fool or be looking at a _very_ desireable car.

I've had very good luck asking my bank to make a copy (or give me their 1 month old copy) of the black book. It's apparently used quite widely here in the SE and I was able to get a very fair price that way in the past. Just don't forget to account for mileage and options!

--Kevin H.

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2003 WRX (again!)

Thanks for reality check. This van was a delivery vehicle in Charlotte. Who knows how many hours are on this engine even if the mileage is low.



I found another article on Edmunds that talked about using the internet to buy a new car. (':stick:') That reminded me that my son got a really good deal on a new Toyota Celica by working with the dealer's internet department. I sent a request for a price quote to Capital Ford from the Edmunds web site. Capital Ford called and gave me a quote that is $200 under invoice. When you add in the discounts that Ford is giving on 2004 cargo vans it looking like I should just buy a new one.

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Mitch Moore