Trophy Girl (THSCC Facebook drama)

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:16 am

Well, it seems like it has been awhile since we have had some type of dust up on the forum. So I apologize in advance if this gets contentious, but I think it needs to be discussed…

Given the 50th anniversary of the club, people have been digging through their closets (or computers) and pulling out photos from old events and posting them online. One set of photos that had been posted on our Facebook page (since removed as best as I can tell) triggered some drama and that was of an event (events?) in which female models (aka “trophy girls”) were in attendance for the trophy ceremony. In short it was quite tame photos of winning drivers standing next to female models in bathing suits at a THSCC event.

I haven’t seen all of the discussions (as I suspect they have been heavily moderated and maybe even completely deleted by those who have admin/moderator rights on the FB page), but in general as best as I can tell the general thinking seems to be…

The photos are offensive as they objectify women. We are an inclusive club, so therefore they are forbidden.

I have a few gripes about that.

First and foremost, the club is not just about “cars”, but it also is a social organization. If it was just only about cars, we wouldn’t have general discussions about other topics, people wouldn’t be friendly or get to know each other, we wouldn’t socialize with each other, etc. It has always been about more than cars. It is a place for “like minded” people to get together. Now when I say “like minded”, I don’t mean we are all clones of each other. We will have a wide range of age, backgrounds, political leanings, other interests, etc. But we do have a general love of cars and motorsports in common. I don’t think it would be healthy if we are only allowed to discuss the lowest common denominator of topics that are not offensive to anyone.

I remember a thread from a few years ago in which I was personally lambasting the concept of modern pushrod engines. I pushed some buttons and caught some flak. There is also the occasional small displacement vs. large displacement discussions that result in battle lines being drawn. My point is that I suspect that the content that everyone can agree upon is quite small.

It is also unfortunate that we can’t discuss our history and a concept that continues to be common in motorsports today. It might be “grid girls” or “trophy girls” or whatever, but they are not uncommon. Regardless of your position on the appropriateness, our history should not be hidden and we should be able to discuss and even post photos that would not out of place in today’s media (point being to not put today’s media on a pedestal, but rather that the content is mainstream).

Lastly, let me step into the proverbial jaws of death. Are trophy girls generally inappropriate? I truly don’t think there is a single valid answer to that. And that if anything is a key point. I think that to some it is and so others it is not. Some find it misogynistic. And I have no doubt that there are people in this world who do nothing but treat women purely as sexual objects and nothing more. I also think there are people who have a different view on sexuality in that you can be strong, independent, well adjusted, healthy, caring and a sexually desirable being all at the same time. I am of the opinion that being desirable and/or desired does not make you less of a person. I absolutely do not think less of those women in the photos and support their choice to act as models. Call me crazy.

As to this wrecking our ability to be inclusive (and clearly I am talking about more women participating), I truly think what is happening now (censorship, pushing a single point of view) is not the healthy way to do that. I am 100% behind more participation by women, but I know that we can’t make everyone (male or female) happy. While apparently controversial, I don’t think those photos have crossed a line.

Overall my concern is (at least how things have progressed so far on Facebook,) that a single point of view has dominated and there is an active effort to shut down other viewpoints. I know it is hard for people to do this, but please realize that the world is not black and white and that even if you don’t agree with it, there is room for other opinions. What bothers me more than anything has been the outright censorship.

With that being said, I personally support someone posting links to the trophy girl photos. Mostly as it is part of our history and for those who care to see it is available. Maybe Facebook is not the right place for that as it is a single “face” (no pun intended) for the club, or maybe it would be fine on Facebook, but we do have a number of sub-forums here in this wider members only forum.

Richard

Andrew Jonell · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm **Posts:** 1350

This is one giant tone argument.

Quote:

As to this wrecking our ability to be inclusive (and clearly I am talking about more women participating), I truly think what is happening now (censorship, pushing a single point of view) is not the healthy way to do that. I am 100% behind more participation by women, but I know that we can’t make everyone (male or female) happy. While apparently controversial, I don’t think those photos have crossed a line.

Overall my concern is (at least how things have progressed so far on Facebook,) that a single point of view has dominated and there is an active effort to shut down other viewpoints. I know it is hard for people to do this, but please realize that the world is not black and white and that even if you don’t agree with it, there is room for other opinions. What bothers me more than anything has been the outright censorship.

If you don't know what a tone argument is, this is a prime example:

We've evolved as a club and we're striving for equality. Auto racing has a very varied history of rich white dudes racing other rich white dudes, more than a few of us here aren't exactly looking to the past for inspiration of what we can be in the future. We have a nonzero number of women who drive with us, and we also have a nonzero number of people who think that the use of trophy girls are kinda gross and that both the objectification of women and the casual attitude of "hey, guys are gonna be guys heh" isn't an appropriate response to what's being posted on Facebook.

To take another tact on a similar argument that's being put forth about the use of trophy girls and the history of the club, we could look at the original logo having a confederate flag. That's a can of worms when you can consider that it's the flag of traitors and specified inequality throughout the past 200 years of American history.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:18 am

Man, I wish Mike Dishman and Karl Kaufman were here to defend their positions since the THSCC Trophy Girls were their baby.

FWIW, my wife won a trophy at Rocky Mount and she got her picture taken with them too!

Jason Mauldin · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:28 am

As one of the nerdy guys that has had his picture taken with a trophy girl, I'm offended by the insulting comments on facebook towards those balding, nerdy guys. Can those comments be censored? In fact, can we just shut down all forms of communication, so that no one gets insulted?

This is a sad sad world that we have created.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:41 am

Andrew,

I have to say I am confused by your post. It has an (unattributed) quote from me, so I want to respond. I am not sure if you agree, disagree or have some other opinion? I know you feel strongly as both Hitler (Godwin's law in just one post) and the Confederate flag are incorporated. Could you help clarify? We may or may not be on the same page.

To be clear, I am anti Hitler, Holocaust and Confederate flag.

Richard

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:44 am

Jason Mauldin wrote:

As one of the nerdy guys that has had his picture taken with a trophy girl, I'm offended by the insulting comments on facebook towards those balding, nerdy guys. Can those comments be censored? In fact, can we just shut down all forms of communication, so that no one gets insulted?

This is a sad sad world that we have created.

I am really not trying to make light of this entire thing (I may come across as joking), but I am actually slightly offended by some of the age comments on Facebook. Stuff like "the older guys". I consider myself to be generally progressive on social topics. I don't like the implication that I can't have modern opinions.

Richard

Andrew Jonell · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm **Posts:** 1350

I was saying it was a tone argument. I provided an example of a tone argument.

Also bringing up the Godwin's Law thing is an ad hominem. Are you interested in having a discussion or do you want to circle around in logical fallacies and appeals to emotion?

Jason Mauldin · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:46 am

Andrew Jonell wrote:

To take another tact on a similar argument that's being put forth about the use of trophy girls and the history of the club, we could look at the original logo having a confederate flag. That's a can of worms when you can consider that it's the flag of traitors and specified inequality throughout the past 200 years of American history.

You're going to speak about inequality while you're bashing a girls right to dress in a swimsuit and have her picture taken? Nobody forced them to be there. Nobody forced you to have your picture taken with them. Would you be happier if women were not allowed to do this? Are you willing to take away that freedom? Should we ban music that objectifies women, which is about 99% of the crap on the radio today? Should we force women to cover their heads in public so that they can't be seen? Maybe we should just keep them locked in the house and not let them out at all?

Andrew Jonell · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm **Posts:** 1350

Jason Mauldin wrote:

You're going to speak about inequality while you're bashing a girls right to dress in a swimsuit and have her picture taken? Nobody forced them to be there. Nobody forced you to have your picture taken with them. Would you be happier if women were not allowed to do this? Are you willing to take away that freedom? Should we ban music that objectifies women, which is about 99% of the crap on the radio today? Should we force women to cover their heads in public so that they can't be seen? Maybe we should just keep them locked in the house and not let them out at all?

Quoting this so you have to delete two posts instead of one.

So let's go down this path. You've completely misinterpreted my argument: the idea that we have to be proud of our history and not criticize it is ridiculous. If we're going to be proud of our history of the use of trophy girls and all of the social implications that comes with it, then why shouldn't we be proud of the club's use of the stars and bars?

Personally, I feel that we have a lot to gain by promoting the fact that we used to have a flag of traitors and terrorists in the club logo. It's great that a symbol of systematic oppression and disenfranchisement of black people in America is a prominent part of our club's rich history. I don't see why anyone would be embarrassed or shy away from being sympathetic to Jefferson Davis or wouldn't want to have the ability to own slaves.

Also, your argument is a slippery slope fallacy.

Jason Mauldin · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:48 am

Richard Casto wrote:

Jason Mauldin wrote:

As one of the nerdy guys that has had his picture taken with a trophy girl, I'm offended by the insulting comments on facebook towards those balding, nerdy guys. Can those comments be censored? In fact, can we just shut down all forms of communication, so that no one gets insulted?

This is a sad sad world that we have created.

I am really not trying to make light of this entire thing (I may come across as joking), but I am actually slightly offended by some of the age comments on Facebook. Stuff like "the older guys". I consider myself to be generally progressive on social topics. I don't like the implication that I can't have modern opinions.

Richard

Richard, I am not making light of the situation. I am offended by the entire discussion.

Jason Mauldin · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:51 am

Andrew Jonell wrote:

Jason Mauldin wrote:

You're going to speak about inequality while you're bashing a girls right to dress in a swimsuit and have her picture taken? Nobody forced them to be there. Nobody forced you to have your picture taken with them. Would you be happier if women were not allowed to do this? Are you willing to take away that freedom? Should we ban music that objectifies women, which is about 99% of the crap on the radio today? Should we force women to cover their heads in public so that they can't be seen? Maybe we should just keep them locked in the house and not let them out at all?

Quoting this so you have to delete two posts instead of one.

As if that would be difficult for me to do???

What's your point? You will NEVER seen me censor someone else. I only censor what comes out of my own mouth, or fingers in this case. I reserve the right to delete or alter my own comments, just as you can and have done..

Andrew Jonell · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm **Posts:** 1350

Richard Casto wrote:

I am really not trying to make light of this entire thing (I may come across as joking), but I am actually slightly offended by some of the age comments on Facebook. Stuff like "the older guys". I consider myself to be generally progressive on social topics. I don't like the implication that I can't have modern opinions.

Richard

Well as a middle aged white dude, your opinions are automatically worth more than the few vocal women we have in our club because reasons.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:03 am

Andrew Jonell wrote:

To take another tact on a similar argument that's being put forth about the use of trophy girls and the history of the club, we could look at the original logo having a confederate flag. That's a can of worms when you can consider that it's the flag of traitors and specified inequality throughout the past 200 years of American history.

So this does talk to something I was thinking about this morning. And you didn't use the phrase, but it is "tradition". With the flag issue, "tradition" is commonly used as a defense. I am of the opinion that tradition matters, but it doesn't trump all. IMHO, with respect to the confederate flag, it can be a sign of tradition and culture, but it also is a strong symbol for inequality. So strong in fact that IMHO, it is not socially acceptable. If out club logo had a confederate flag incorporated, I wouldn't support that at all. Thankfully we don't have the problem! I think the biggest issue with our logo is that when it is shrunk down it doesn't render well (am I the only one who thinks the "favicon.ico" used on the website looks like a dangling penis? Just look at the yellow icon on your tabbed browser such as Chrome

).

I think whaling is another example of the dangers of "tradition". I absolutely abhor whaling in general (mostly due to sustainability issues, but they are also majestic and intelligent animals). I am conflicted regarding native Inuit whaling if they truly need it for food (likely doubtful as I suspect it is mostly tradition and culture at this point). Whaling in the Faroe islands and by Japan are unacceptable. But my point is that much of the defense is "tradition" and I don't buy it. But I do think tradition does matter.

Again, all of this is my opinion. Others may disagree.

Richard

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:04 am

Andrew Jonell wrote:

Richard Casto wrote:

I am really not trying to make light of this entire thing (I may come across as joking), but I am actually slightly offended by some of the age comments on Facebook. Stuff like "the older guys". I consider myself to be generally progressive on social topics. I don't like the implication that I can't have modern opinions.

Richard

Well as a middle aged white dude, your opinions are automatically worth more than the few vocal women we have in our club because reasons.

Again, I am seriously unsure. Are you joking (some of us have a dry wit) or are you serious?

Richard

Jason Mauldin · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:05 am

Andrew Jonell wrote:

Jason Mauldin wrote:

You're going to speak about inequality while you're bashing a girls right to dress in a swimsuit and have her picture taken? Nobody forced them to be there. Nobody forced you to have your picture taken with them. Would you be happier if women were not allowed to do this? Are you willing to take away that freedom? Should we ban music that objectifies women, which is about 99% of the crap on the radio today? Should we force women to cover their heads in public so that they can't be seen? Maybe we should just keep them locked in the house and not let them out at all?

Quoting this so you have to delete two posts instead of one.

So let's go down this path. You've completely misinterpreted my argument: the idea that we have to be proud of our history and not criticize it is ridiculous. If we're going to be proud of our history of the use of trophy girls and all of the social implications that comes with it, then why shouldn't we be proud of the club's use of the stars and bars?

Criticizing and censoring are two very different things. You will never see me censor either image out of any form of communication.

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