Trophy Girl (THSCC Facebook drama)

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:11 am

Andrew Jonell wrote:

I was saying it was a tone argument. I provided an example of a tone argument.

Also bringing up the Godwin's Law thing is an ad hominem. Are you interested in having a discussion or do you want to circle around in logical fallacies and appeals to emotion?

I am all for the discussion. Regarding the logical fallacies and "appeals to emotion" if I am guilty, please point that out.

Richard

JamesMilko · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:13 am

This is why Facebook is terrible. If this happened here the thread would have just gotten locked and it would have disappeared into the abyss.

For the record, I think it was tacky as shit and I'd rather the public image of the club I represent not be associated with it. It may have been fun at the time, but man it did not age well.

Andrew Jonell · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm **Posts:** 1350

Richard Casto wrote:

So this does talk to something I was thinking about this morning. And you didn't use the phrase, but it is "tradition". With the flag issue, "tradition" is commonly used as a defense. I am of the opinion that tradition matters, but it doesn't trump all. IMHO, with respect to the confederate flag, it can be a sign of tradition and culture, but it also is a strong symbol for inequality. So strong in fact that IMHO, it is not socially acceptable. If out club logo had a confederate flag incorporated, I wouldn't support that at all. Thankfully we don't have the problem! I think the biggest issue with our logo is that when it is shrunk down it doesn't render well (am I the only one who thinks the "favicon.ico" used on the website looks like a dangling penis? Just look at the yellow icon on your tabbed browser such as Chrome

).

I think whaling is another example of the dangers of "tradition". I absolutely abhor whaling in general (mostly due to sustainability issues, but they are also majestic and intelligent animals). I am conflicted regarding native Inuit whaling if they truly need it for food (likely doubtful as I suspect it is mostly tradition and culture at this point). Whaling in the Faroe islands and by Japan are unacceptable. But my point is that much of the defense is "tradition" and I don't buy it. But I do think tradition does matter.

Again, all of this is my opinion. Others may disagree.

Richard

I agree with what you're saying. The thing about the pictures of trophy girls surfacing is that at the root it's objectification of women and there are more than a few people who are tuned into how casual things such as this reinforces traditional gender roles and everything negative that's associated with that. It's OK to acknowledge that the club used to use trophy girls or featured the Confederate flag in the logo; however, romanticizing "the good ol' days" when it comes to either is where things get tricky. For example, a comment along the lines of "Oh man, I remember that, that was a pretty crazy time" is fine and doesn't explicitly endorse or promote the casual misogyny of having trophy girls, whereas a comment such as "Oh man, I really miss those days. The PC crowd hates a bunch of guys just having fun" heavily implies that things were better with trophy girls and the objectification of women.

There have been movements for equality regardless of race, gender, or creed, but there is still plenty of work to be had to ensure equality for everyone. THSCC has made some in-roads and is fairly diverse, but people being casually flippant about why people would be offended by trophy girls is a stumbling block that needs to be overcome.

JamesMilko · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:23 am

I think the key of Andrew's argument doesn't have to do with the women who are actually in the photos. It's that it reinforces the beliefs of people who legitimately view women in a dimmer light.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:28 am

Andrew Jonell wrote:

There have been movements for equality regardless of race, gender, or creed, but there is still plenty of work to be had to ensure equality for everyone. THSCC has made some in-roads and is fairly diverse, but people being casually flippant about why people would be offended by trophy girls is a stumbling block that needs to be overcome.

I think that is generally "fair enough". I do think a point that is being missed is that image of gender, equality and specifically sexuality (and being a sexual creature) is an evolving topic and... it may not go the direction you think. My point being that I think that while pure objectification will continue into the future unabated (likely hard wired into men at some level) that being desirable and being desired is not in itself a bad thing. I think everyone tends to gloss over that point and jump completely onto a very black and white interpretation.

To your "tone argument" example. It has Hitler saying effectively "hey, man, that is your opinion" as if that is a "get out of jail free" card. Just like "tradition", it is not, but... opinion does matter. I do think that this is not clear cut, only works one way, get over it move on, you are a dinosaur type of thing.

On a different note, you (someone) mentioned, hinted that the stars and bars were part of the logo? Is that true? If so, interesting, news to me and kudos for it being changed.

Richard

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:37 am

IBTL...

Just joking. One last post before I away from a computer for awhile. We have had a number of rough threads on this forum before. This one can run its natural course, or it can be a trainwreck. IMHO, it is a trainwreck when people loose respect and attack each other. We do have rules against that. You could also say we have rules against offensive content (that is a tightrope and the core of this thread). I am no longer "The Admin", but am "An Admin" so I have to walk my own tightrope. I have hold myself to a higher standard when in these types of discussions. I try extremely hard to be polite, respectful and to not abuse any forum rights I have (delete posts etc.)

So in short, as long as we don't attack each other personally and really cross significant lines, I think this can be done in an adult way. But... if it strays away from "discussion" and becomes "attacks" then it will be moderated.

Richard

steve remchak · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:45 am

Yes Richard, the Confederate flag was incorporated in the original logo. I'm no intellectual (no shit, right) but this argument is foolish. It takes for granted the theory that women or new members aren't intelligent enough to realize that those images and practices were from 20 years ago. Are we not in fact protecting these frail creatures by censoring the images from past events? I'm sure the response from women is the same now as it was then, "how f'ing stupid is this?" when they saw trophy girls.

As to my comments about old balding dudes.... they aren't the "problem" here IMO. It's the young "enlightened, Blue Ribbon for you jimmy" guys. Act like you have a sack and quit pissing and moaning about how THSCC is objectifying woman.

Secondly, as to the censorship issue...... lets not forget the mantra of club volunteerism that has prevailed lately.... "It is my time, my effort and my decision. I will make The Club fit my opinion of its needs and wants. Don't like it? Volunteer."

Peace out Bitches, I'm going back to Facebook.................. :lol:

Matt McGrain · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:48 am

I agree Richard. There aren't any attacks that I've seen, just differences of opinion that I don't foresee a compromise to.

Anyhow, I think it's fair to say that we won't see any trophy girls soon or rebel flags on any trophies. FWIW, my old plaques with the flags got the sharpie treatment a long time ago. Actually they look a nice cross between the Flag of Scotland and the UK. :lol:

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:49 am

steve remchak wrote:

Act like you have a sack and quit pissing and moaning about how THSCC is objectifying woman.

Last an only warning. See my post above about respect and attacks.

Richard

Andrew Jonell · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm **Posts:** 1350

Thanks for putting a thesis on my statement, James, I frequently forget those.

Richard Casto wrote:

I think that is generally "fair enough". I do think a point that is being missed is that image of gender, equality and specifically sexuality (and being a sexual creature) is an evolving topic and... it may not go the direction you think. My point being that I think that while pure objectification will continue into the future unabated (likely hard wired into men at some level) that being desirable and being desired is not in itself a bad thing. I think everyone tends to gloss over that point and jump completely onto a very black and white interpretation.

To your "tone argument" example. It has Hitler saying effectively "hey, man, that is your opinion" as if that is a "get out of jail free" card. Just like "tradition", it is not, but... opinion does matter. I do think that this is not clear cut, only works one way, get over it move on, you are a dinosaur type of thing.

On a different note, you (someone) mentioned, hinted that the stars and bars were part of the logo? Is that true? If so, interesting, news to me and kudos for it being changed.

Richard

Even if you aren't well-versed in feminism or the implications of casual misogyny (in this case it's objectification of women), I think a lot of us feel that it's weird, gross, and straight-up creepy. I feel that should be enough reason to dissuade people from wanting to post pictures or romanticize the past like that; however, not all people may feel similarly.

My point was that people don't have to be explicitly active to promote the objectification/misogyny. Being a passive participant in this whole thing still reinforces the idea that it's OK for women to be put on display and admired. The crux of it is that THSCC having trophy girls isn't the end-all for objectifying women; however, it is a minor player when you consider all of the other minor players that treat women as if they have no agency... it's the sum all of the individual parts.

To draw a parallel, it's similar to a lot of media (TV, movies, games, etc) where there's a damsel in distress who requires saving by the dashing male protagonist who gets to have the woman after she's been saved; ultimately she's just there as a set piece with no agency and reinforces the idea that women are weak and require a man to come save them. For THSCC, your reward for winning your way around a parking lot was to get a trophy, get the girl (who was paid to be there and is a set piece/part of the environment), and to get a photograph to remember the experience of you winning a piece of particle board and a Real Life Person. For winning, you're entitled to the woman, you're entitled to a piece of particle board, you're entitled to bragging about doing some sweet cone dodging.

Matt McGrain · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:54 am

steve remchak wrote:

As to my comments about balding dudes.... they aren't the "problem" here IMO.

I always knew you were an alright dude Steve. :wink:

steve remchak · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:00 pm

Richard Casto wrote:

steve remchak wrote:

Act like you have a sack and quit pissing and moaning about how THSCC is objectifying woman.

Last an only warning. See my post above about respect and attacks.

Richard

Duly noted...... but hardly an attack. I can do much better.................

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:01 pm

Andrew Jonell wrote:

Even if you aren't well-versed in feminism or the implications of casual misogyny (in this case it's objectification of women), I think a lot of us feel that it's weird, gross, and straight-up creepy. I feel that should be enough reason to dissuade people from wanting to post pictures or romanticize the past like that; however, not all people may feel similarly.

My point was that people don't have to be explicitly active to promote the objectification/misogyny. Being a passive participant in this whole thing still reinforces the idea that it's OK for women to be put on display and admired. The crux of it is that THSCC having trophy girls isn't the end-all for objectifying women; however, it is a minor player when you consider all of the other minor players that treat women as if they have no agency... it's the sum all of the individual parts.

To draw a parallel, it's similar to a lot of media (TV, movies, games, etc) where there's a damsel in distress who requires saving by the dashing male protagonist who gets to have the woman after she's been saved; ultimately she's just there as a set piece with no agency and reinforces the idea that women are weak and require a man to come save them. For THSCC, your reward for winning your way around a parking lot was to get a trophy, get the girl (who was paid to be there and is a set piece/part of the environment), and to get a photograph to remember the experience of you winning a piece of particle board and a Real Life Person. For winning, you're entitled to the woman, you're entitled to a piece of particle board, you're entitled to bragging about doing some sweet cone dodging.

I totally understand what you are saying. I think the problem is that to a degree images like the ones in question are a bit of a Rorschach test. Some see what you see and others don't. I think what is hard is that you are seeing a boat and I see a train and that you feel supremely confident that boat is not just the right answer, but the only answer, while I feel that both are valid answers.

I have a strong sense of right and wrong, but I also have a strong sense that the world is full of grey and that trying to fit every scenario into a tidy box is just not going to work. I am having a hard time shoving those photos into the "wrong" box as if there are only two boxes to pick from.

Richard

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:02 pm

steve remchak wrote:

Richard Casto wrote:

steve remchak wrote:

Act like you have a sack and quit pissing and moaning about how THSCC is objectifying woman.

Last an only warning. See my post above about respect and attacks.

Richard

Duly noted...... but hardly an attack. I can do much better.................

Oh, I know you can.

I am waiting for the other "usual suspects" to show up.

Richard

Jason Mauldin · **Posted:** Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:03 pm

Andrew Jonell wrote:

Richard Casto wrote:

So this does talk to something I was thinking about this morning. And you didn't use the phrase, but it is "tradition". With the flag issue, "tradition" is commonly used as a defense. I am of the opinion that tradition matters, but it doesn't trump all. IMHO, with respect to the confederate flag, it can be a sign of tradition and culture, but it also is a strong symbol for inequality. So strong in fact that IMHO, it is not socially acceptable. If out club logo had a confederate flag incorporated, I wouldn't support that at all. Thankfully we don't have the problem! I think the biggest issue with our logo is that when it is shrunk down it doesn't render well (am I the only one who thinks the "favicon.ico" used on the website looks like a dangling penis? Just look at the yellow icon on your tabbed browser such as Chrome

).

I think whaling is another example of the dangers of "tradition". I absolutely abhor whaling in general (mostly due to sustainability issues, but they are also majestic and intelligent animals). I am conflicted regarding native Inuit whaling if they truly need it for food (likely doubtful as I suspect it is mostly tradition and culture at this point). Whaling in the Faroe islands and by Japan are unacceptable. But my point is that much of the defense is "tradition" and I don't buy it. But I do think tradition does matter.

Again, all of this is my opinion. Others may disagree.

Richard

I agree with what you're saying. The thing about the pictures of trophy girls surfacing is that at the root it's objectification of women and there are more than a few people who are tuned into how casual things such as this reinforces traditional gender roles and everything negative that's associated with that. It's OK to acknowledge that the club used to use trophy girls or featured the Confederate flag in the logo; however, romanticizing "the good ol' days" when it comes to either is where things get tricky. For example, a comment along the lines of "Oh man, I remember that, that was a pretty crazy time" is fine and doesn't explicitly endorse or promote the casual misogyny of having trophy girls, whereas a comment such as "Oh man, I really miss those days. The PC crowd hates a bunch of guys just having fun" heavily implies that things were better with trophy girls and the objectification of women.

There have been movements for equality regardless of race, gender, or creed, but there is still plenty of work to be had to ensure equality for everyone. THSCC has made some in-roads and is fairly diverse, but people being casually flippant about why people would be offended by trophy girls is a stumbling block that needs to be overcome.

This isn't as black and white as you make it out to be.
You have made a direct correlation between objectification and equality.
I believe that women have more equality now than they have ever had. (I am not saying that it is 100%)

I also believe that society objectifies women (and men) more so now than it ever has in the past. Listen to Top 40 music or watch a popular TV show for many examples of this.

Regardless, my contention is with censoring the viewpoints of others. Which you clearly have no problem with. You are okay listening to others, as long as it fits within some set of boundaries that you are comfortable with.

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