THSCC Forums

And... What type of exclusions are typically found in personal liability policies? I expect they have their own.

Richard

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

From my 1 minute look at their site, they only offer property damage coverage for your car...

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

I assume (key word) that hitting a kid in the paddock will depend on the circumstances. If i am driving to grid (thus participating in a race), or have a major off course then there is no coverage.

If I am leaving the site (food run), or just driving around for fun, then I'm covered (no difference than hitting a kid in a parking lot while attending a NASCAR event).

This is so frustrating.

For sale: 2007 Honda S2000. well-maintained. 68k. Only driven on Sundays

Kidding....maybe? I feel like the rug just got pulled out from under me.

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Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86

Really? I never went to autocross or a track event and expected my insurance to cover anything. I've probably participated in 225+ autocrosses over the years and have seen one incident that involved a car hitting a person and that was a worker who escaped with some minor bruising. I've seen 4 incidents where a car hit another car and maybe 6 incidents where a car hit an object. In other words, if I'm autocrossing, I'm not worried about it.

For HPDE's, that's a different story when you factor in the instructor... and that has me thinking a bit. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

FWIW, THSCC has never once filed a claim for any incidents in 49 years. 2 claims for wind damage....that's it.

_________________
2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

Yes. The liability portion is key. The car stuff? No, I don't expect coverage on my car if I break something or it contacts a barrier, runs off course etc. But if some idiot jumps out in front of me during a run to pick up a cone and we make contact or if a child chasing a dog runs into the way while I'm driving in paddock, I do expect liability to cover that.

I guess I should say I did expect that. Now, the situation is completely turned over. Maybe I'm just over-reacting.

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Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86

This could be it's own thread, but...

How will the sport change long term given the ever increasingly litigious nature of our society combined with the difficulty in limiting your exposure? Where exactly is the risk? Limiting it to HPDE and Autocross/Rallycross...

* Danger to yourself personally (a risk we take, but our spouses, or childre may not agree once we are dead or severely disabled. ie. I think the Porsche Carrera GT case fits this model)
* Danger to our personal property (again a risk we take and not really the issue in my opinion)
* Danger to other individuals and their property.

Of which the last item breaks down to ...

* Impact with other cars on track/course
* Impact with other property in pit/paddock
* Injury to other drivers/passengers (car on car on track/course)
* Injury to passengers
* Injury to spectators
* Injury to course workers

I am sure there are other scenarios, but to limit the risk in the future are we going to migrate to...

* One car on course at all times (Autocross/Rallycross)
* Automated courses (no volunteer course workers and not cones). In effect some other system to measure "knocking over a cone" (great business opportunity for someone to solve that one cheaply!)
* No or limited spectating
* Restricted pit/paddock
* No or significantly restricted "instructors" at HPDE? Or some other type of instructor model?
* A more unified self-regulation effort (such as via certification process) to facilitate cheap and affordable insurance?
* Purpose built venues for Autocrossing, etc. (death to grassroots aspect of the sport).

Again, I am not trying to sound alarmist, but I am curious what "grassroots motorsports" will look like in 30-50 years. I know that in practice all this does is really open up personal liability if things go really sideways, and historically that has not been a problem.

Richard

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

If enforceable under the new law, I would be better served getting my aggressive driving out on the street than on a track, as on the street I would be covered (no Cline, I don't plan on doing this ) - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

Couple of thoughts:

1) If you read the passage Cline posted, it implies that your liability coverage is limited (to 30k I guess) for something a drag race from a stoplight (spontaneous contest of speed). As I've told many in the past, not only can you potentially be criminally liable for the actions of another in a situation like that, but now they are removing most all of your personal liability coverage for that behavior it would seem.

2) The BMW Performance Center allows the Sandlapper Chapter of the BMW CCA to hold "autocross" events on their incredibly nice track (I put that in quotes since the speeds are high, and there are few cones for the most part). However, they will not allow course workers who are not BMW employees on the course. They have two center employees in X5s who call in cones and pick them up (holding start if needed). They are required to be in their vehicle located in a safe location when a car is on course in their vicinity. Hence just as a point of reference this is how BMW corporate handles potential personal injury issues with their facility. (it's incredibly nice of them to not only allow the track use but to supply the workers too imo). Only pointing this out as it came to mind as folks have discussed course workers and liability.

_________________
Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

I was always under the impression that since autocross is a timed event (read: therefore racing) to expect zero insurance coverage if something happened. However, if something happened in the paddock that was not racing related, I would have expected to be covered.

Example of being covered: I back out of my parking spot and hit another car due to the large blindspot in a convertible ( )

Example of not being covered: By some stroke of fate, I have a tailwind allowing me to accelerate up to 90mph, jump the yard and wind up hitting a car in the paddock.

Take the illegal racing aspect out of it. A tire blows on the interstate at 70 MPH and I accidently crash into another car. I have liability coverage. A tire blows at 50 MPH at an autocross and I accidently crash into another car. I don't have liability coverage. Right? It does pretty much go counter to the "take it off the streets" argument. And frankly of the two, I see the interstate version having the higher risk for overall liability (restrictor plate racing on I40). But I totally get the point about illegal activity.

Richard

_________________
Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Cline,

So given NC is one of the few 'special snowflake' states regarding auto insurance and how it's handled between the state and insurance providers, that is to say most (if not all) other states where the states do no mandate the exclusions, I'm assuming said states allow insurance providers to exclude racing, competition etc. I also assume the insurance companies *do* exclude racing/competition/driving schools since they are not prevented from doing so.

So most other autox/HPDE organizations in other states have essentially already been operating with these conditions already? Or is there something inherently worse with these new laws that makes it jump to the opposite side of the spectrum vs other states.

FWIW, I have a 2M umbrella policy which is probably a good bit more than the 2x your net worth recommendation since it is so cheap. That said, I can easily conjure a hypothetical 20 person injury 10 car pile up, multi-death I540 in rush hour accident scenario that would cost 5-10+ millions of dollars if it's proven someone was neglecting their car or fell asleep or whatever. The traffic and aggressive driving rampant during rush hour in the triangle is something that many of us experience 5x a week and I'd argue is more risky than the data from decades of THSCC, TSCC, or the SCCA events would indicate regarding autox/HPDE bodily injury/liability claims. Yes your insurance would kick in in the former scenario, but the frequency and severity potentials are much higher. Just my thoughts, might be off base though.

_________________
2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

This is the big point...I've no idea what other states do, so hopefully we'll have some perspective soon. BTW, what does NASA and do with corner workes at their events? From what i understand they are volunteers--are they covered by NASA's insurance or not covered at all? Any special worker's waivers that are required?

I agree that liability risk is much higher during the course of daily life--traffic incidents, slip and fall, trampoline injury, dog bites...makes you wonder who made the insurance commissioner mad?

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Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86

So Cline, do we know who or how this got added under the cover of darkness? I have never expected coverage at an AX and like Aaronhave not seen any major accidents but it can happen. It does concern me that I'm sure they would deem any accident at an Ax part of the racing experience and therefore exempt from coverage

HPDE is a different topic.

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1990 Faded Reddish CSP Lite Miata
2002 Electron Blue Corvette Z06
2005 Mazda 6 Wagon
2003 Nissan Pathfinder DTV (Dog Transport Vehicle)