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 Post subject: I live in a 'failed' development
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 7:14 pm 
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So I found out recently what happens when developments fail. My neighborhood's developer went belly up and only posted about 50% of the necessary amount of money to finish the paving in bonds.

Must be widespread in Durham as City Council has passed a measure where they are going to help out with ~10% of the shortfall and assess lien on all houses in the neighborhood for the difference spread evenly by the # of lots.

So the irony is that Durham City Council also passed a measure saying that from now on, all developers have to post bonds in the amount of 100% of the inflation adjusted cost to finish development.

Well I will be the first to admit (other HOA members don't agree with me) that it is OUR fault. Every single homeowner in my neighborhood could have investigated the developer and found out they only posted 50% the necessary funds to finish the development and investigated their financial health and after doing so, determine if it is a risk he/she is willing to take of the development failing. I accept responsibility for this. Hell, I thought I was doing pretty good as a first time homebuyer given I read 95%+ of the documentation at closing on my house (I'd bet the average in the US is 10% or less (see below)...basically just the words around the circled signature lines).

The reason our property tax doesn't cover projects like this is the streets haven't be 'turned over' to the city so they technically don't own or are responsible for the streets yet. Again, something I didn't know or understand in 2008 when we had the house built. But if I ever buy new property again, I'll be better educated I suppose.

So it can be argued to be partly Durham's fault because they wanted developers to develop as fast as possible to bring new homeowners to the area and grow the city both in population and finances. So in doing so they allowed developers to post very little in bonds to urge them to come to Durham and build neighborhoods as fast as possible. Early on, it paid off since the developers finished fast, got homeowners in the houses (ie taxpayers to Durham....that's all we are in their eyes) because mortgages were flying off the shelves, Durham got increased tax revenue, and the developers finished the projects after cashing out the bonds plus more out of their pockets (since they had money in their pockets at the time) and moved on to the next neighborhood. Then when things hit the fan and developers went under, and there isn't enough money to complete the projects. Ideally you'd think Durham would accept their poorly calculated risks and use this extra tax revenue they've taken in to help pay. But during this time, they overextended themselves in other ways meaning that extra money isn't just laying around.

I feel like a hypocrite though. I am of the opinion that this recession is 100% purely the fault of the consumer. I don't fault the banks or wall street or government at all. In the end, it was ultimately the decision of the consumer to sign a mortgage with terrible terms (that they didn't read, go figure), or to use a credit card with a credit limit that would put their debt to income ratio at 60% or higher if they maxed it out (oh yes....they did), or in this case, to buy a new property by a developer who had less than 50% equity (inflation adjusted) in the project that represented a completed 'development'.

Oh well, worst case it'd be $900 or so and they'll let you pay it off over 8 years at prime + 4.5% with a ceiling of 9%, but I'd just pay it off when it's assessed. I guess given I bought the house in 2008, I saved a LOT more than $900 on the house :).

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Last edited by JamesShort on Thu May 12, 2011 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I live in a failed development
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 9:01 pm 
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That sucks and unfortunately that is the case with a lot of developments. Hope you like gravel roads :( . I think everyone had a hand in the recession and if the consumers were the ones frauding the banks, I'd agree. However, the banks frauded the system with their creatively packaged loans, building unsustainable pyramids, and not even knowing what they were doing. The hedge funds were making money by buying insurance betting that the "packages" would fail

The government is also to blame for not regulating and for participating in the fraud

Customers who knowingly bought more than they could afford.

Good Luck

BTW judging by our street, the state doesn't do that great a job of fixing roads.

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 Post subject: Re: I live in a failed development
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 9:38 pm 
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We are already paved with the first layer of asphalt so it's not terrible.

Quote:
Customers who knowingly bought more than they could afford.
But this is my point. Had they been wise with their debt and only took mortgages they could afford, or read the terms and walked away from bad mortgage products, or used their credit cards reasonably, then the hedge funds and wall street couldn't have packaged a little shit debt with a bunch of 'OK' debt and traded these packaged securities to their hearts content.

The consumers were the enablers of all the Banks/Wall Street/Hedge Fund mess.

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 Post subject: Re: I live in a 'failed' development
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 10:39 pm 
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I can't see anyone here at fault other than the City of Durham. They should be footing the bill and explaining to the rest of the city taxpayers why they had to spend money to finish the roads of a development because the bond, that exists for exactly this reason, wasn't enough to cover the completion of the roads.

I have so much anger towards the banks and government with this financial mess I have little anger left for the consumers who signed shit loans. No unscrupulous loan/security practices no artificial demand for housing. No artificial demand for housing no artificially high prices. No artificially high prices no collapse. No collapse means people still have equity in their houses and can refi their 5/1 arms into 30yr/15yr fixed loans. They weren't passing sub-prime mortgages off as crappy securities. They were passing sub-prime loans off as AAA rated, as secure as investing as a first world country's government debt.


JamesShort wrote:
But this is my point. Had they been wise with their debt and only took mortgages they could afford, or read the terms and walked away from bad mortgage products, or used their credit cards reasonably, then the hedge funds and wall street couldn't have packaged a little shit debt with a bunch of 'OK' debt and traded these packaged securities to their hearts content.


People walking away (by choice or otherwise) is what caused the collapse. The repacking scheme only worked as long as the majority of the sub-prime loans were being paid. Once the default rate increased the scheme didn't work anymore and all sorts of AAA debt went bad at once causing massive problems.


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 Post subject: Re: I live in a 'failed' development
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 10:47 pm 
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JamesMilko wrote:

People walking away (by choice or otherwise) is what caused the collapse. The repacking scheme only worked as long as the majority of the sub-prime loans were being paid. Once the default rate increased the scheme didn't work anymore and all sorts of AAA debt went bad at once causing massive problems.

I meant 'walking away' from the closing table. As in not originating a loan in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: I live in a failed development
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 7:48 am 
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RobLupella wrote:
Hope you like gravel roads :( .


That doesn't happen, a bank will NOT close a loan on a subdivision loan until the first lift is down.

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 Post subject: Re: I live in a 'failed' development
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 8:29 am 
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JamesShort wrote:
The reason our property tax doesn't cover projects like this is the streets haven't be 'turned over' to the city so they technically don't own or are responsible for the streets yet.


It's hard to believe that subdivision rules are more strict in Wilson that in Durham. In Wilson the city will not allow any development (building houses) until the streets are done. We can't even record the final plat until that happens, and if you (the developer) don't have a plat you can't sell any individual lots.

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 Post subject: Re: I live in a 'failed' development
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 9:13 am 
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Vincent Keene wrote:
JamesShort wrote:
The reason our property tax doesn't cover projects like this is the streets haven't be 'turned over' to the city so they technically don't own or are responsible for the streets yet.


It's hard to believe that subdivision rules are more strict in Wilson that in Durham. In Wilson the city will not allow any development (building houses) until the streets are done. We can't even record the final plat until that happens, and if you (the developer) don't have a plat you can't sell any individual lots.

Well that is typically the rule of thumb ANYWHERE, but in some over zealous cities who want to attract developers, they will allow them to post bonds in amounts ranging from 0-100% of the amount it would take to finish any infrastructure (stormwater, sidewalks, paving) and then let them to start building the houses and getting homeowners into them meaning more money in their pockets with the hope that by the time the last house is sold the developer has a swimming pool full of cash. Then they'd cash out their bonds PLUS uses some of the revenue from the homes to pay for the last bit of infrastructure. At this point they 'complete' or 'turn over' the roads to the City and they are publicly owner and maintained at this point.

But like I said, there is one layer of asphalt and in my phase at least its smooth except for the manhole and water covers :).

I just take it as a Koni testing ground :).

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 Post subject: Re: I live in a 'failed' development
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 9:21 am 
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Vincent Keene wrote:
JamesShort wrote:
The reason our property tax doesn't cover projects like this is the streets haven't be 'turned over' to the city so they technically don't own or are responsible for the streets yet.


It's hard to believe that subdivision rules are more strict in Wilson that in Durham. In Wilson the city will not allow any development (building houses) until the streets are done. We can't even record the final plat until that happens, and if you (the developer) don't have a plat you can't sell any individual lots.


Are you *sure* about that? What Ryan posted is more typical in that there has to be *pavement* down, but it doesn't have to be *finished*. So in most cases they do pave, they just don't do the final paving on top because the construction equipment is just going to go back and do damage to it anyway.

This kind of thing isn't limited to residential areas, either. The road that the Johnson Lexus and the newer Honda dealership are on over near South Point had this same problem. The developer who started all that property over there went under and left the road in HORRIBLE shape. There was a layer of pavement, but all the manhole covers were raised and the curbs raised in prep for more pavement....that never happened. Dunno if they have it sorted out now, but last summer when we bought our Pilot the salesman said it had been that way now for several YEARS. Imagine having to try to sell cars in that environment? That road is/was TERRIBLE.

And you want to be in a REAL mess? Try having a substantial deposit on a condo only to have the developer go bankrupt *right* after the thing is COMPLETE, only to find there's no money to fund the condo association. Same problem, only sort of worse...I mean everything is COMPLETE. It's a real building that's completely finished. But no owners will close on their units because there's no funding for the ongoing maintenance and upkeep.

Happened to me on an investment property in New Bern. Basically I think most owners are going to just eat their deposit to get out of the deal, and at some point the lawyers will figure out how to use the bankruptcy to sell the entire thing to some management company at auction cheap enough that they *can* afford to fund the association properly and then start selling the units. But the problem is they are simply worth SOOOO much less than they were before the crash that it just doesn't make sense for any of the owners to try to work through this to the end and own their unit. You'll lose more in value (by a lot) than even the fairly substantial deposit.

It's been a crazy time shaking all this kind of crap out of the system, and it's going to be another ten years, at least.


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 Post subject: Re: I live in a 'failed' development
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 9:31 am 
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I bought the SI at Southpoint Honda and have been getting parts from them since they moved there from CH. Let's just say I basically knew how to slalom before I even started autocrossing from that road :).

One sales guy told me that they have to get the Hyndai Dealer built before they finish the last layer of pavement.

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 Post subject: Re: I live in a 'failed' development
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 9:36 am 
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Donnie Barnes wrote:
Are you *sure* about that? What Ryan posted is more typical in that there has to be *pavement* down, but it doesn't have to be *finished*. So in most cases they do pave, they just don't do the final paving on top because the construction equipment is just going to go back and do damage to it anyway.


It may be a case of our subdivisions are are probably 1/4 the size of those in question, but in my 9 years here, the streets are totally finished before houses are built. Also keep in mind we have several one-street subdivisions here so not exactly apples to apples.

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 Post subject: Re: I live in a 'failed' development
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 9:49 am 
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We were burned by a regulated Utility provider who posted bonds that were woefully inadequate to cover the facilities they supported. DENHR/PUC asleep at the wheel on that one, I feel your pain ..

Our subdivision elected to have our roads turned over to the State. The DOT has certain acceptance criteria you have to meet for them to accept the roads. After that, they're responsible for maintenance. We even got a fresh layer of asphalt a couple of years ago, paid for by DOT.
This is worth doing imho.

Frank


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 Post subject: Re: I live in a 'failed' development
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 9:51 am 
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Frank Catena wrote:
We were burned by a regulated Utility provider who posted bonds that were woefully inadequate to cover the facilities they supported. DENHR/PUC asleep at the wheel on that one, I feel your pain ..

Our subdivision elected to have our roads turned over to the State. The DOT has certain acceptance criteria you have to meet for them to accept the roads. After that, they're responsible for maintenance. We even got a fresh layer of asphalt a couple of years ago, paid for by DOT.
This is worth doing imho.

Frank

Hmm, our HOA board has a meeting with the city in a few weeks. Do you have any details about how that can happen (ie turning the streets over to the state as opposed to Durham)?

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 Post subject: Re: I live in a 'failed' development
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 10:31 am 
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JamesShort wrote:
Hmm, our HOA board has a meeting with the city in a few weeks. Do you have any details about how that can happen (ie turning the streets over to the state as opposed to Durham)?


Finish the road and meet the City Standards. Its quite a common thing to turn roads over to the DOT/City. Its easy to do as long as they were built to their standards.

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 Post subject: Re: I live in a 'failed' development
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 10:44 am 
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Ryan Holton wrote:
JamesShort wrote:
Hmm, our HOA board has a meeting with the city in a few weeks. Do you have any details about how that can happen (ie turning the streets over to the state as opposed to Durham)?


Finish the road and meet the City Standards. Its quite a common thing to turn roads over to the DOT/City. Its easy to do as long as they were built to their standards.


There are density numbers you have to meet before they'll do it, but any sanely developed neighborhood will meet those. The thing to be sure of is that the roads are built to state standards. If not, they won't touch it. If so, they have to take it assuming it meets the criteria.

I know what it's like to NOT meet state standards, but my road was built through 20 acre lots and most of them weren't developed and I've since bought them. So we'll never meet density standards. Well, at least not while I'm alive.


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