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clinehall · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:47 pm

Just to weigh in on the e30 issue:

I've only been in two races but we did not get penalty laps in 2/10 when the car was a previous winner. I agree with Steve, Jay was having a heavy flow day and thought we had played him on the 100 reduction in residual.

Having a few e30s in the mix is positive for all concerned. You get those guys who are too snobby to drive an escort and the guys driving an escort like mixing it up with one of those fancy german cars. This is great marketing, you get the racer wannabe like us and the spectacle guys.

Personally, I love lemons. Would I like Chip Ganassi to call me and ask me to run DP for him better yes, but that ain't happening. It's honest to God racing with a lot of good people and a few pricks thrown in.

Jason Tower · **Joined:** Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:31 pm **Posts:** 1173

clinehall wrote:

It's honest to God racing with a lot of good people and a few pricks thrown in.

unfortunately, as kevin points out, your fun weekend of honest-to-god-racing can be significantly shortened by BS rulings about events that are not your fault. rather than the using the principle of "it's better to let 100 guilty people go free than send an innocent person to jail" it's more like "kill (penalize) them all and let god sort them out".

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:20 pm

It's all the antics that have kept me away. I'm just not up for "silly", either.

That said, I'll be surprised if Lemons is alive in five more years. You might still be seeing new folks entering for NOW, but I think most of the people who have been regulars will get tired of this kind of racing, and the pool of people who want this kind of racing is actually pretty limited. If the pool of people who just want *cheap* racing is big enough, well, then "real" racing bodies will find a way to provide it without the silly factor.

I just think the silly factor strictly limits the set of people who are going to be interested.

IMHO, anyway.

--Donnie

TomFreeman · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:06 pm

Donnie - I will sadly agree with your "not around in 5 years" point, but for different reasons. I think there will be an incident or two, and a pursuing lawsuit that will take the franchise down.

I have lots of faith in the large number of disenfranchised car dorks that will continue to find that series and feel a lot more comfortable with it's silliness, vs the relative seriousness of SCCA IT or NASA PT.

Money wise, as many of us who have done LeMons and Chump will tell you, it isn't really that cheap. For what we've spent, there is no doubt in my mind that we could have bought a backmarker but legal IT/PT car and run it for a few events. Of course, what you don't get with that backmarker car, is the consistent ability to run it with all your buddies. The enduro aspect of LeMons/Chump is a Major draw. We all get to play. If NASA or SCCA offered more enduros (opening a whole different can-o-worms) they might be able to draw in some more of the crapcan racing crowd.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:36 pm

TomFreeman wrote:

Donnie - I will sadly agree with your "not around in 5 years" point, but for different reasons. I think there will be an incident or two, and a pursuing lawsuit that will take the franchise down.

I agree. There is someone just lurking behind the bushes waiting to get rich off of a lawsuit.

TomFreeman wrote:

I have lots of faith in the large number of disenfranchised car dorks that will continue to find that series and feel a lot more comfortable with it's silliness, vs the relative seriousness of SCCA IT or NASA PT.

There certainly is no shortage right now. IMO, there would be even more if some teams weren't limited geographically. We aren't quite as hard-core as some teams who even now will tow for 16-20 hours each way for an event. If the events were closer to some there would be an increased number of entrants.

TomFreeman wrote:

Money wise, as many of us who have done LeMons and Chump will tell you, it isn't really that cheap. For what we've spent, there is no doubt in my mind that we could have bought a backmarker but legal IT/PT car and run it for a few events. Of course, what you don't get with that backmarker car, is the consistent ability to run it with all your buddies. The enduro aspect of LeMons/Chump is a Major draw. We all get to play. If NASA or SCCA offered more enduros (opening a whole different can-o-worms) they might be able to draw in some more of the crapcan racing crowd.

IMO 'cheap' is relative here, compared to what some spend on autocross per minute or club racing, etc. Like Tom said, the enduro thing allows four (or more) people to split the costs and still get plenty of time behind the wheel.

It's easy to tell those who 'get' Lemons, and those who don't call it 'silly'. News flash...it's supposed to be silly. :wink:

Obviously if you are a serious racer-type you wouldn't prefer this particular series.

WalterHouston · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:24 pm

Ryan Holton wrote:

WalterHouston wrote:

We got a 10 lap penalty in May jut because we had won before and showed up again.

I thought it was because you didn't have your lies down well enough and got caught replacing some parts.

You guy should do an Amish theme and all wear long beards, maybe they won't recognize you.

Wrong. We didn't get caught replacing anything. Steve gave the correct answer.
If I do a Lemons event again, it will be with a very different attitude. I will have no expectation of winning or doing well. I will just go and have fun making laps.
Donnie does make some very good points.

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:35 pm

Vincent Keene wrote:

It's easy to tell those who 'get' Lemons, and those who don't call it 'silly'. News flash...it's supposed to be silly. :wink:

Obviously if you are a serious racer-type you wouldn't prefer this particular series.

FWIW, I'm not trying to belittle it or anything by calling it "silly." Not in the least. I *totally* "get it." It's just not for me.

I agree the lawsuit thing is out there, and that might be what does it. But I also think that at some point either this kind of racing will really catch on BIG and folks will do it without the "silly" part attached for about the same costs for folks, or the fad will die. If the former, I think a good bit of your current field would ALSO prefer not to have to deal with the silly side but are simply willing for the benefits this type of event provides (witness how we have folks HERE who will do more Chump but no more Lemons...I not only think this isn't isolated, I think it would become more prevalent as time goes on).

But we'll see. I would like to go catch one in person for at least some of it, and I do enjoy reading the reports and watching the videos. I do think I completely "get it", I just don't want to go "do it."

--Donnie

steve remchak · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:48 pm

i hope cheap enduro racing catches on. i would have no problem with running a SCCA or NASA series established for $500 to $1000 cars. the problems start when organizing bodies try to bring about an even playing field. that is generally accomplished with rules and more rules, car classing which requires more rules and of course the emphasis on winning at any expense. (rules allow it....... might as well spend it)

ChumpCar is seeing this issue to some extent and IMO it will be a major sticking point for that series. certain cars perform better in near stock form than other cars. Miatas, E30s, Hondas, you all know the list.

so completely arbitrary, nut-job BS Inspections level the playing field one infraction / judgement call at a time with LeMons.

it's Jay's playpen, play nice or play somewhere else is his credo.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:56 pm

Jason Tower wrote:

clinehall wrote:

It's honest to God racing with a lot of good people and a few pricks thrown in.

unfortunately, as kevin points out, your fun weekend of honest-to-god-racing can be significantly shortened by BS rulings about events that are not your fault. rather than the using the principle of "it's better to let 100 guilty people go free than send an innocent person to jail" it's more like "kill (penalize) them all and let god sort them out".

Its all about attitude. Every story I have ever heard about disenfranchised Lemons or Chump racers came at it with the wrong attitude. Furthermore, your standards organizations can ruin folks weekend with BS rulings or rules changes or some chowderhead knocking you off track on lap 1.

Donnie Barnes wrote:

If the pool of people who just want *cheap* racing is big enough, well, then "real" racing bodies will find a way to provide it without the silly factor.

I have exactly zero faith that the SCCA or NASA could actually pull off the cheap racing thing. I can just imagine the heads of both organizations sitting there trying to divide by zero.

It REALLY shouldn't work but it does for some reason. Whereas the NCR region is having a hard time filling their Goblins Go enduro, Lemons just held one with 108 entries out in California they turn people away at 150+. You can't deny the results. I realize entering the Goblins Go != Lemons but again the numbers don't lie and folks are voting with their money.

For some reason I don't see Lemons ending the way everyone else does, I think Jay will get bored with it and blow it up himself.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:41 pm

Ryan Holton wrote:

Jason Tower wrote:

clinehall wrote:

It's honest to God racing with a lot of good people and a few pricks thrown in.

unfortunately, as kevin points out, your fun weekend of honest-to-god-racing can be significantly shortened by BS rulings about events that are not your fault. rather than the using the principle of "it's better to let 100 guilty people go free than send an innocent person to jail" it's more like "kill (penalize) them all and let god sort them out".

Its all about attitude. Every story I have ever heard about disenfranchised Lemons or Chump racers came at it with the wrong attitude. Furthermore, your standards organizations can ruin folks weekend with BS rulings or rules changes or some chowderhead knocking you off track on lap 1.

Donnie Barnes wrote:

If the pool of people who just want *cheap* racing is big enough, well, then "real" racing bodies will find a way to provide it without the silly factor.

I have exactly zero faith that the SCCA or NASA could actually pull off the cheap racing thing. I can just imagine the heads of both organizations sitting there trying to divide by zero.

It REALLY shouldn't work but it does for some reason. Whereas the NCR region is having a hard time filling their Goblins Go enduro, Lemons just held one with 108 entries out in California they turn people away at 150+. You can't deny the results. I realize entering the Goblins Go != Lemons but again the numbers don't lie and folks are voting with their money.

For some reason I don't see Lemons ending the way everyone else does, I think Jay will get bored with it and blow it up himself.

and this from a man that knows what a ham sandwich actually looks like. apparently Ryan has not seen a ham sandwich lately or for that matter the mirror image of one either.

tell us how you really feel Mr. Holton.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:28 pm

in addition, just in case ya'll thought LeMons officiating was bonkers bat-ass frickin fubar crazy, remember this. http://espn.go.com/espnradio/player?rd= ... autoplay=1

people's livelihoods depend on this kinda stuff.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:45 pm

and........

Johnny Knoxville is a millionaire, NBC re-hired Jay Leno; Lindsay, Pam, Lisa Lampanelli.

OK, Lisa Lampanelli is at least earning her keep. probably a Republican. i'll bet she cheats on her taxes.

WalterHouston · **Posted:** Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:12 am

Jay will sell his interest in Lemons before it starts to slide. He is a smart guy. After that, who knows what will happen.

Kevin Harvey · **Posted:** Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:48 pm

Just so you know that we DO "get it" but just don't want to "do it" anymore, take a gander at these pics before anyone writes off my opinions. Some of them are pretty funny if you weren't there.

http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/ ... MP%202010/

No one else made such a debacle of the whole "bribe the judge" BS Tech situation as we did. And we even brought a RUNNING car and gave it to the judges. Complete with self working smoke screen (plumbed a bottle of ATF into the intake!). That wagon had a homemade lift kit and smelled like it had been used as a hobo hotel.

I'll see most of you in a couple of weeks. We can reminisce over a cold one.

-Kevin

steve remchak · **Posted:** Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:13 pm

Kevin Harvey wrote:

Just so you know that we DO "get it" but just don't want to "do it" anymore, take a gander at these pics before anyone writes off my opinions. Some of them are pretty funny if you weren't there.

http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/ ... MP%202010/

No one else made such a debacle of the whole "bribe the judge" BS Tech situation as we did. And we even brought a RUNNING car and gave it to the judges. Complete with self working smoke screen (plumbed a bottle of ATF into the intake!). That wagon had a homemade lift kit and smelled like it had been used as a hobo hotel.

I'll see most of you in a couple of weeks. We can reminisce over a cold one.

-Kevin

yes i too have been following the cross posts all day also Kevin. your opinions IMO are valid but one-dimensional. we get it, LeMons isn't for you or the gang Jimmy has traveling with him.

unfortunate. i think you just caught the wrong event, there were so many first time teams at CMP this time i do believe. it was a noob fest. add in the stricter enforcement by the event organizers and a lot of teams are bitching.

and of course another E30 won the race. hope to see you gangsters on North Course when ChumpCar returns to VIR.

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