THSCC Forums

I recall that GRM did some sort of comparison test, maybe at the Michelin test site in SC, between Mike's sort of DSP 6 cyl BMW and the same vintage 4 cyl M3. Mike's did "rather well" as I recall. Anyone (Mike?) care to provide details/corrections?

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Steve,

The Roundel did such a comparison many years ago. They even extrapolated the three (or five?) year cost of ownership of the two which showed that net out of pocket wasn't all that dissimilar after the time period (if you sold the car) since the M3 held its value so much comparatively. I'll have to dig out the issue sometime, but I can't recall exactly when it was (and it might have been versus the E36 M3 sometime in the 90's). That's one thing interesting about the old guard that has run the CCA -- they haven't in BMW's pocket unlike some other clubs. From that Mustang comparo to a total slam job on the E60 when it was released, they have taken some strong positions against BMW at times.

I don't really think "in the market" these cars are competing at all. I know of nobody who is cross-shopping an E92 M3 and the Mustang GT unless they're thinking of buying a GT to drive and buying a 2nd one to store instead of the M3. Just because performance numbers might be close is irrelevant to the M3 marketplace for the most part (my opinion of course).

This is particularly true when you look at the E90 (4-door) M3. My wife and I have thought about selling her E90 and buying a 2011 E90 M3 before they go out of production. It's an awesome 4-door sedan, and likely will be looked at as the end of an era out in the future. However, her current car has been such a good one (incredibly reliable since new 4.5 years ago) that we're probably just going to keep it longer. We tend to buy cars and hold them very long term (hence the reason the old 850R is still here after 14+ years).

Anyway, the competition for the E90 M3 is what? CTS-V? (too big and supposed competitor for E60 M5). One requirement is a 6spd manual as neither of us will accept a slushbox or automated manual (not quite using a walker yet, but that day will come I suppose). I think that might leave the S4 as the only other sedan that comes close? The Pontiac G8 GXP was looking good until it was killed, but it's also a larger car.

I think you might be a more converted fan of modern BMWs if you spent some daily seat time with one? It's not too "modern" but you're welcome to drive my M5 any time you want or the E90. The E90 330i is an interesting car if one is a fan of N/A BMW sixes when fitted with 6MT and sport package.

Regards,
Chuck

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

Chuck,

I realize you were responding to Steve . . .

Great info and I certainly concur that there will be little, if any, cross shopping between Mustangs and essentially any new or recent used BMW, especially M's.

I don't dare test drive a BMW since my budget and priorities could never afford a new or even recent used one for a daily driver. I would rather put that kind of money into a better camper van and/or trailer and for gas for towing the race car to autocrosses all around the country.

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Chuck,

Great points all. I am a BMWCCA member as well, and like that they are not in BMW NA's back pocket. The readership (based on letters to the Editor) largely skew toward people who own older BMWs and are not so thrilled with the newer stuff., which is fine--different strokes, I guess. I suppose I more or less mirror that attitude. I do DD my M Roadster, but that's as "modern" as I want to get..I do like to check my own oil, after all

I suppose I'm just an anomaly as I do cross-shop a Mustang and an M3, and found that review to be quite interesting. Not being a fanboi of any one marque it allows me to consider each car on its merits, as the Pobst drive/review shows the two cars to be nearly identical from the only factor that really interests me--performance. Similar performance for less money makes me , as someone aptly pointed out that one can buy a lot of seat time and consumables for the price difference between the two cars. I suspect I'm not alone, but it sure does feel that way as the battle lines are drawn....

(Of course, we all know the real answer to the question is Z06 ...)

/ducks for cover
//hopes Mike W has room in his fallout shelter

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Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86

Bingo!

Oh, btw, regarding the CCA, I'm thinking its hey days are perhaps behind it? I'm the center of the demographic for it I think (51), and it appears few in the club are much interested in the "younger set" with stuff like a show car M3 with chromed brake discs, 5KW sound systems, etc. The modern "young" enthusiast is a bit different than in the early 70's when the CCA really got going. Yeah, I'm old enough to remember when it was a very rare site to see a BMW on the road and essentially everyone flashed headlights at each other, chased another one down to chat, etc.

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

Overall I think Ford got exactly what they wanted, there is a similar conversation on almost every Auto forum out there, and look how long this thread had gone in a ADD rich environment that is known as THSCC.

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Marty Howard
2011 NASA SE Factory Five Challenge Champion
Track Events Logistics Coordinator - TZC/THSCC
2007 Factory Five Challenge Car.
http://www.mh-motorsports.com

I was thinking the same thing. Even *I* am still reading this.


--Donnie

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My Blog

I get what you're saying. Bimmerforums is a far cry from the demo that reads Roundel, but there is a surprisingly robust old school E30 crowd that is under-25. Of course, they are boosting their M20s or dropping S50/52/54s into them, but hey--that's the price of progress, right?

I get waves daily from other Subaru owners. Mostly WRX and STI drivers, though..can't figure out why the Forester drivers don't wave back....

Back OT, though. I suspect the real battle remains as it has always been-Mustang vs Camaro. Ford v Chevy. Clearly, the Camaro has little love on most of the non-marque specific forums. Punching BMW on the snout was really just a big middle finger to the bowtie crowd.

Note to Ford: pleeeeeease put your V6 in a lightweight RWD coupe. I promise to buy one.

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Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86

Agree. I don't think Ford was going after the M3 buyer. They might be going after the buyer that purchases a lesser 3 Series because of what the M3 can do.

Most likely, they just wanted to point out that the Mustang has evolved past being just a drag race car.

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In need of car.

That's exactly it. It's to appeal to the crowd that grew up liking pony cars but ended up moving on to BMW's and the like because they found the art of DRIVING enjoyable. Now Ford has managed to massage their icon into a DRIVER's car instead of just a cool car that goes fast straight. Then they figured out the perfect "icon" car to compare it to...especially when you see the price tags.

Drivers don't buy US cars for the most part. But Ford is doing a pretty good job of trying to fix that. Now if they'd just bring that bad ass little Focus over here.

And that lightweight RWD V6 powered machine mentioned above.

And then give us a decent F-150 diesel option. *sigh*


--Donnie

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My Blog

Well, the BA Focus is on it's way, along with the it's little sibling the Fiesta Turbo. Both should be here before the end of the year.

The V6 Mustang is pretty good, but I wouldn't call it light weight. I wonder if Ford could make a good 3000 lb RWD to put that engine in and still maintane Mustang V6 sales?

And maybe they could also bring back the 7.3L Diesel as well.

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Marty Howard
2011 NASA SE Factory Five Challenge Champion
Track Events Logistics Coordinator - TZC/THSCC
2007 Factory Five Challenge Car.
http://www.mh-motorsports.com

What is "kind of neat" is that for younger (or not so young) "drivers" who don't have the bucks for a BMW, etc. they can legitimately substitute a Mustang or Camaro and get a pretty decent approximation of what a more sophisticated machine can do.

Back when I started driving Mustangs in the late 60's I had to really "stretch" the approximation but I did order my first Mustang with disc brakes and radial tires in addition to staying with the 351 4V instead of a heavy 390 or 428. Even considered the Firebird with the OHC six to really try to keep the front end "less heavy". Chickened out on getting a Boss 302 or Z28.

I had shopped BWM's etc but decided on a Pony Car instead. I seem to keep doing that . . . except for my Datsun 260Z period.

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

One of the things that is "allowing" a leveling of the board among automakers is the general advancement in engineering knowledge in my opinion. As time progresses, previously sophisticated methods of design and manufacturing are becoming mainstream, and this process is (has been) accelerating with time.

In the 2010's we've probably reached a point where previously expensive (relatively) manufacturing processes are within reach of lower price point products...sort of a tipping point almost. I don't know, just blabbering on here. Which reminds me....

Back in 2004 I went to the BMWCCA Techfest event, and I had lunch there with the BMW AG engineering manager for DSC systems (Dynamic Stability Control) and Active Suspension systems. His English was very good, so our conversation was pretty deep (more than he figured on probably). I specifically asked him why, through the years, BMWs have had such a great ride/handling compromise that comes across feeling so good to the driver. His reply was to ask me why I thought it was so. (smart guy, he didn't want to really get into this level of detailed discussion I don't think).

I told him I assumed it was based on two things: (1) overall unibody structural properties, i.e. bending and torsional rigidity, coupled with how (where) the suspension loads are introduced and how they are distributed by the structure; and (2) bushing design. I assumed that the design of suspension bushings given their non-linear response and all, would have to be tightly integrated with the structure design, spring/damper design and tire design. I think this is something BMW has excelled at for many years, i.e. 40 years.

His reply was to smile and simply say that hits the main points or something like that. When I pressed him for more details on bushing design, he didn't want to reveal anything (either because he wasn't that up on the details or, as he inferred, he wasn't going to give away any secrets).

Anyway, my long-winded point is that stuff like the above has reached a point where many automakers can design structures and perhaps sophisticated bushings, etc, at a high level of engineering performance and manufacture such much cheaper (in relative terms to the total costs) than in the past. You know, sort of like how an all aluminum DOHC 4-valve (or even 5 valve) V6, V8, etc, was massively exotic just a few short years ago (well, ok, a few long years ago).

Hence, I think we're reaching a plateau of sorts, at a high level, where many have now climbed and incremental change from here is going to be very difficult (expensive) to justify. Hence we're seeing a leveling out, so to speak, among many "classes" of automobiles. This is probably one of the reasons BMW is running so fast to put the most amount of tech gadgets and junk it can in its cars -- trying to keep some sort of premium thing going.

/long-winded, perhaps incomprehensible rambling over

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

///M POWER

Did I see a blue 2011 GT at the meeting tonight!?!

EDIT: Hold on, Michael is that why you are selling your exhaust?

EDIT2: By the way, I saw *no* chicks hanging around it either.

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2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

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