THSCC Forums

Yeah, and enough of your "natural selection" and the club ceases to have insurance and thus ceases to exist. *shrug*

The legal system in this kind of case works on the principle of what is reasonable. It's easy to argue it's reasonable to run 70psi in your rear tires (I've seen a multi-time national champion do it), but not easy to argue you should sit idly by while someone works under a car supported by a hydraulic jack.


--Donnie

_________________
My Blog

there's a simple solution: at the drivers meeting (i don't attend autox or rallyx events but i assume there's some sort of all hands meeting to start) just remind everyone to be safe when working on their cars, and to watch out for each other and lend a helping hand if you see anything that looks amiss. encourage a healthy respect for safety and lead by example. done.

No I did not say that. Please read what I wrote at face value and stop making assumptions.

o·ver·sight: Watchful care or management supervision
rec·om·mend: To advise or counsel

This is a serious subject and not the time for accusations or knee jerk reactions. I really do not appreciate being accused of things that are untrue and that I did not say.

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

I agree with Kevin, where do we draw the line??? And who decides what is safe and what isn't????? We've all done foolish things, either in haste or just ignorance, or what ever. The old adadge there's no cure for stupid applies. We can recommend and try to help those that we feel are operating in an unsafe manner, but as I said before recommendations often fall on deaf ears, that includes SCCA safety stewards, ex THSSC presidents and THSCC members. We all feel we know what we are doing even when we're wrong.
As far as hydraulic jacks go I've seen more sissor jacks tip over, than hydraulic Jacks. so we already have a difference of opinion in this thread. If we throw out everyone who makes an error in judgement because they are rushed or what ever you won't have a club. What the club is doing right now is obviosly working, two insurance claims in over forty years. If it ain't broke don't try to fix it. Those efforts usually make things worse.
Jmho

_________________
2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

Please understand that my original question IN NO WAY was meant as a negative towards our fine club. I truly believe that the stewards/tech groups do a great job in spotting problems. As someone who has had to re-tech their car for a ball joint I neglected to spot, I am aware of the keen eye of Safety that this club provides. I was curious of how the club approached safety...

Furthermore I have found some of the most friendly people within the paddock. Like the time I only brought ONE jackstand and had to borrow Bernies... or the time that Mark Barnes lent me his brake caliper vise and saved me 2 hour of messing with a set of channel locks... and on and on.

I don't fully sign on to the "natural selection" line of reasoning. It feels like an insensitive cop out. Its very easy to make this claim when the victim is a John Doe, and not a family member.... lets face it we all make stupid decisions..

Again I have NO idea how the private sector looks at risk/liability. If I were more active in the club, I probably would have a better idea of what it takes to put on one of these events.

_________________
http://greenjacketracing.blogspot.com/
1987 Mustang GT Track Car-
1999 Toyota Tacoma
1988 BMW 735i 5 speed
1989 BMW 325i running like German Junk
2004 F-350 Super Duty (NC taxpayer owned)

Someone thinks he's Sean Hannity.

Mike, don't be the token Democrat.

Someone has some thin skin.

So you don't want any "watchful care"? Or it's the "management supervision" part you don't like? I'm really just trying to get a better idea of what you DO mean, Mike.

Bernie, it's about what's reasonable. If most of us agree that it's not reasonable to work under a car with no jackstand under it and only supported by a jack (and the SCCA certainly agrees, it's in their rulebook which we purport to follow on occasion) and if an informed club officer lets someone do that, then the club is liable and likely to lose a lawsuit. Just because it hasn't happened in 40 years doesn't mean we need to put our heads in the sand about it.

The club is already "responsible." I'm just saying people need to feel empowered to do something about obvious safety problems. I thought they already did, but Mike's words don't seem to align with his intent, and I'm just trying to get some clarity from Mike. All I'm getting so far is "I didn't say that", but now all the sudden the genie is out of the bottle and people seem scared to state what the position *is*.

I'm not "accusing" anyone of anything. That's pretty hard to do with a question mark at the end of a sentence. Kevin, OTOH, is just fanning flames unnecessarily. I've sat in a good many meetings with incident reports and the SCCA attorney. I've got SOME clue what I'm talking about. And I'm not dropping scenarios so that if it happens someone will have good info about how to go sue...believe me, they'll figure that out on their own (and with the help of a pile of attorneys who are more than happy to go after anything and everything with or without basis). I'm dropping them to make sure people understand what CAN happen to help protect the club.

Mike, believe me I *know* you care about the club, the club's insurance status, and the safety of those around you. I'm not debating that nor trying to imply in any way otherwise. I'm not so sure about Kevin, however.


--Donnie

_________________
My Blog

Look like it is another subject to add to the list of: THSCC Topics of DEATH!!

_________________
Patrice
1973 911 former track and AX car.
2016 VW GTI
2002 Nissan Sentra (Olivier car)
2012 Nissan Juke (Kathy car)
2010 Suzuki Kizashi (Audrey car)

IBTL!!

_________________
Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Suck my ass. Thread lock now?

"In my opinion"

this means that what I say doesn't matter at all

"we don't want any oversight"

let's not take on any more club-level responsibility which could affect liability. Let's find another way to do it.

"Recommendations, sure"

let's find some ways to remind, educate, and promote safety in a way which could not drive liability or the "slippery slope" others mention

"Now I 100% agree that we need rules about pit speeds and reckless behavior"

we already have this, or at least I did at every event I organized. I certainly hope that the Event Chairs and Officers remind people, at every driver's meeting, that people will be ejected from the event and club for any unsafe or reckless behavior. I know I said that and put it on the course map for every event I organized. This is a private club, and we can toss any person for any reason. And there is no "requirement" legal or otherwise, for us to publish or vote on those reasons.

I think a productive step in the safety discussion would be to approach the officers by email or in person and voice your concerns about unsafe behavior seen. Ask them to do something about it in the future.

Let me make an example.

Let's say for instance that at one event in the future Joe Blow has decided to tighten his lugnuts by bashing his head against the breaker bar. Joe cracks his skull and is taken to the hospital. People think it's a freak occurrence. Next event John Doe does the same thing. Now it's a trend.

As is process:

Officers see that this is becoming a serious safety problem and begin to announce at the meeting that tightening lug nuts with your head is not allowed. Per my earlier point, we already have the right to eject someone from the club for any reason. No need to repeat that.

Potential new process and concern:

We have a safety officer. He makes a list of 1000 things that are not allowed. Head banging on torque wrenches is not one of those things. Joe blow does it and goes to the hospital. His lawyer gets a copy of our "1000 safety rules" document and sues the pants off the club, putting it out of business.

Am I starting to make any more sense?

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Mike, how does this differ from someone having a heart attack at the event and everyone knows that John Doe is an EMT, yet due to risk issues, he choses not to help the guy. You think because there are no guidelines titled, "How to save a life at an autocross event" that a similar lawsuit wouldn't bankrupt the club?

The problem with our society is that the world has become so letigious that we lose sight of common sense and trying to help someone out. In my opinion, we should just update the waiver in such a way that it protects the club for someone using questionable judgement. My guess is that it is already built into our waiver already and a quick trip to an attorney to review some language would be easy and likely inexpensive. - AB

_________________
'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

Guys, we really need to make sure we're understanding terms here. I'm not in favor of oversight or official responsibility (for personal safety), and I am strongly in favor of recommendations or guidelines to use the new word you introduced. The 2 concepts are very different. The first removes personal responsibility and the second reinforces it.

I should mention Jake, that I have seen a significant injury happen, on my watch, at an event. I have also talked at length with other event organizers who have had a fatality at an event and the fallout that occurs with review of processes, documentation, and responsibility. There was a lawsuit. I think through this stuff all the time. And I have come to my own opinion about what a volunteer club really should and should not be committing to.

Emergency plans? Yes. Safety recommendations? Yes. Safety reporting strategy? Yes. Response process? Yes. Commitment to kick people out if they are doing things to harm others _or_ themselves only? Yes. Relying on the judgement of officers? Yes.

Single point of control? No. Exclusive documentation of what is unsafe? No. Club based responsibility for personal safety? No. A specific staff position for safety to centralize control? No. In my opinion.

Safety is everyone's responsibility and should only be centralized in cases where people are putting other people (or the club) at risk (speed limits, reckless behavior). Anything more than that is too ambitious and will cause too many unintended consequences. I am sure the SCCA can do this since they have a national level organization and the resources needed to pull something like this off. I bet even at the top levels in the SCCA though, it's safety and the gaps their processes that keep some of those guys awake at night.

*** Before I get mis-read again, everyone keep in mind that all of my comments are centered on personal safety, that is what people do to and among themselves, not safety items which could potentially hurt other people. Centralization and 100% control are totally required for that. ***

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

That's how I feel. Even if we did designate a "safety officer" that person can not be everywhere all the time.

I have had a club member stop me in the paddock and tell me to get a *expletive deleted* jackstand (Thanks Bernie!).

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

One other thought. Someone implied that I don't want a safety officer because I'm afraid of the lawyers. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

The only reason you need centralization of safety control is if you ARE scared of the lawyers. And if you decide to centralize safety, you better be ready to do it 100%, not half-assed, not 75%, not 99%. Committing club responsibility to personal safety would require a 100% plan, no holes, no omissions, no way for something to slip past. That's nearly impossible in this club so I say no thanks.

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1