⚠ Forum Archived — The THSCC forums were discontinued (last post: 2024-05-18). This read-only archive preserves club history. Visit thscc.com →  |  Search this archive with Google: site:forums.thscc.com your search terms

THSCC Forums

Tarheel Sports Car Club Forums
It is currently Tue Apr 07, 2026 10:07 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:37 am 
Offline
I err on the side of being stupid
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:15 pm
Posts: 4743
Location: Greenville, NC
Stacy King wrote:
Which brings up another debate... to row through the gears while downshifting or not (which I think is related to how one Heel-toes.)

Which of course is related to overall speed through a corner (2nd gear vs. 3rd gear, 3rd gear vs 4th gear)... which of course is related to overall experience/confidence, and hardware... and of course, type of corner.


Its also related to transmission quality/condition.

My Miata HATED going 5-3, 5,4,3 was much smoother.

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:00 pm 
Offline
I got a SUX2000!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:07 am
Posts: 2443
Location: In the garage, under a big old Mercedes
As drivers improve over the course of their careers, "always brake in a straight line" becomes less of a mantra, and the goal shifts more towards "brake when I need to brake." Let's examine part of a track that many of us just drove a few weekends ago - CMP, turns 4 and 5.

In every car I've ever driven there (H3 Integra, ITC Civic, ITA Miata, DSP Sentra), T4 is done in 4th gear, and 3rd gear is selected under braking and while turning into T5. Were I to not heel-toe this downshift, the driven wheels would attempt to lock up when initiating this turn-in. I'm sure it can be done without a heel-toe, but it would be a heck of a lot more busy, and more difficult to time right. It becomes several concurrent inputs rather than a couple. Which is more difficult to execute correctly.

I've had at least one THSCC member spin me off track at VIR's south course because he did not heel-toe. This was at the bottom of the "spiral." At the very bottom of that hill, I had asked this person to take 2nd gear. He did not heel-toe the downshift. The car was highly loaded up, and when he released the clutch, even though the rear wheels didn't quite "lock up," the instant "shock" to those rear wheels sent us right around when they exceeded their available grip.

Making the claim that "it's just an HPDE, so you don't need to go as fast as possible," isn't true. We're all trying to go faster than we did the last time. Often, people who claim that it isn't necessary, or that it's a waste of time, are people who can't do it well, or can't do it at all. That doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile thing to do for everyone else.

Malia, my suggestions for learning this technique are like what a lot of other people have said.

1. Get an idea of the basic mechanics of the technique in your garage. The car doesn't even need to be running to get a feel for how your foot likes to be arranged to start doing this.

2. Practice it with a running, parked car. This way you can hear the amount of RPMs you're adding. It might even be helpful to have Dustin look at your feet, to see if you're changing the amount of braking you're doing while giving the throttle a blip. This is a very common problem, and one of the most difficult parts of the technique to master.

3. Now, practice it on the street. I've held for years that heel-toe needs to be a HABIT before it becomes an effective tool for going faster. Also, I maintain that if you can do it successfully driving around town, doing it in a competition setting is a whole lot easier. On a track, since you're (presumably) braking very hard, a slight over- or under-rev blip will hardly be noticable. However, since you've been practicing it on the street, it's also very unlikely to happen. Because you're actually good at it.

There are person/car combinations that render heel-toe next to impossible. The guy who owned the ITC Civic that I used to race couldn't do it due to an old football injury. His right leg just didn't work that way.

Bottom line is that it's a worthwhile technique when done "habitually well." Once it's a habit, all this talk of how complicated it is becomes a non-issue, because you're doing it instinctively. You don't even think about it.

If you want to watch someone with flawless technique, hitch a ride with Matt Nicholson sometime. I've told a lot of folks over the years that he's about the smoothest driver I know, and he could probably heel-toe a lawn tractor. Come to think of it, he probably *does* heel-toe his lawn tractor. If I remember the ride at CMP correctly, Wes Sandler would be another guy to ride with. Mike Whitney is another. These guys have beautiful technique and are a pleasure to watch work.

_________________
Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:16 pm 
Offline
Queen of the Guinea Hens
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:32 pm
Posts: 3122
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Karl Shultz wrote:
There are person/car combinations that render heel-toe next to impossible.


Like me in an early Lotus Elise. I had one of the first cars, and it just wasn't going to happen. Big feet, long legs, tiny footwell...bad mojo. Supposedly they've made the footwell better since, but I haven't been in a later car.


--Donnie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:01 pm 
Offline
I hate working the course at autox and I must tell you about it, often.

Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:53 am
Posts: 1718
David White wrote:
steve remchak wrote:
tried this in the Z06, as the pedals are too far apart.


time to fix the pedals...either find a way to move the brake pedal closer to the gas pedal (big hammer? :wink: ) or put something on the gas pedal that widens it (gets it closer to the brake pedal)


I can H&T a stock Z06 now. However I got a gas pedal to replace the factory one. I helped test it out when the guy designed it. It works great and makes the process of H&T in a Z06 pretty easy. Looks better with all metal pedals too! I offered you my other one Steve. It's still sitting in my parts closet.

That said I agree with Vincent. I don't think I will ever say mastered doing H&T. It is effective and it works.

Jim's earlier point I agree with. A Novice in the Green group is not the place for that. Those first events, let's say 1-3. They need to work on the basics and get used to being on track. Events 4-6 maybe they start on H&T work. IF their instructor feels that they have mastered the basics enough that it is something to try. If you look in a NASA log book. They have a laundry list of things to do based on your skill level. It seems pretty well defined to me.

One thing I didn't notice or missed in this talk. H&T is not about engine braking. Some people let out the clutch and call it H&T when they are using the engine to slow the car. I drop 4-3 coming into the corner and want the downshift to be smooth and not upset the car in any way. My braking should have already been mostly done.

_________________
http://www.greywinds.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:14 pm 
Offline
The Giver
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:45 am
Posts: 4566
Location: Bashing BMWs!
David White wrote:
steve remchak wrote:
tried this in the Z06, as the pedals are too far apart.


time to fix the pedals...either find a way to move the brake pedal closer to the gas pedal (big hammer? :wink: ) or put something on the gas pedal that widens it (gets it closer to the brake pedal)


David obviously doesn't know Steve. Trust me, he couldn't drive that Z06 fast with paddle shifters and no clutch. Hell, if it was an automatic he'd still have issues in that car. :P :roll: :wink:

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:14 pm 
Offline
Queen of the Guinea Hens
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:32 pm
Posts: 3122
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Graham Jagger wrote:
Jim's earlier point I agree with. A Novice in the Green group is not the place for that. Those first events, let's say 1-3. They need to work on the basics and get used to being on track. Events 4-6 maybe they start on H&T work. IF their instructor feels that they have mastered the basics enough that it is something to try. If you look in a NASA log book. They have a laundry list of things to do based on your skill level. It seems pretty well defined to me.


So you disagree with all the professional race schools out there teaching you HT on the first morning of your first day of ever being on track, then?

I actually like the way those schools do it. They get you out on the track in a MUCH less daunting fashion with the group thing using different parts of the course (and going counter-race to start over) and get you used to being "on track" in a MUCH more laid back fashion. I think this is way better for the total newbie, but I also think most of the club type "novice" groups are really targeted more at people who have autocrossed and perhaps done other things where they already have *some* skills, they just haven't been on track yet.

Those schools have the entire track for the entire day, though, and don't have the advanced sessions to deal with. But I still say it's better to learn HT right off the bat than to develop the bad habit of NOT using HT.


--Donnie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:39 pm 
Offline
I got a SUX2000!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:07 am
Posts: 2443
Location: In the garage, under a big old Mercedes
Graham Jagger wrote:
Jim's earlier point I agree with. A Novice in the Green group is not the place for that.


I'll agree that learning how to heel-toe should not be done on a racetrack. Which is why I think we're all suggesting Malia practice in her garage and on the street. I've also had green students over the years - yellow as well - who were poor at the technique, and I've asked that they stop trying it for the weekend.

However, nothing wrong at all with a newcomer learning the technique *before* they show up at their next track day. I've had a couple of these over the years too - total newcomers to track days who already knew how to do it. This was most welcome - proper gear selection is so much easier when you can do it, and these novice students can concentrate on things other than where they let the clutch out.

With all of this said - Donnie's right. The pro schools do teach it early on day one, and you spend a fair amount of time working on it. Buddy Rice taught me to stop double clutching when I was at Bondurant 12 years ago, and I thank him for that. Pro schools offer a staggering amount of seat time per day, so time spent learning (or re-learning) how to heel-toe isn't to the detriment of track time. You get more track time than you can stand at Bondurant, and I'm sure the others are similar.

_________________
Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:26 pm 
Offline
Republican
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:25 pm
Posts: 4356
Location: MWI/MUI Kubota FTW
Vincent Keene wrote:
David White wrote:
steve remchak wrote:
tried this in the Z06, as the pedals are too far apart.


time to fix the pedals...either find a way to move the brake pedal closer to the gas pedal (big hammer? :wink: ) or put something on the gas pedal that widens it (gets it closer to the brake pedal)


David obviously doesn't know Steve. Trust me, he couldn't drive that Z06 fast with paddle shifters and no clutch. Hell, if it was an automatic he'd still have issues in that car. :P :roll: :wink:


yes, i am a pussy. :oops: thanks for waiting at least a day to point that out VK. 8)

_________________
BenchWarmer Motorsports

another one of those damn LeMons heads

just another Chump :)

we are an Autocross Club Dammit............


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:20 pm 
Offline
I hate working the course at autox and I must tell you about it, often.

Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:53 am
Posts: 1718
Donnie Barnes wrote:
Graham Jagger wrote:
Jim's earlier point I agree with. A Novice in the Green group is not the place for that. Those first events, let's say 1-3. They need to work on the basics and get used to being on track. Events 4-6 maybe they start on H&T work. IF their instructor feels that they have mastered the basics enough that it is something to try. If you look in a NASA log book. They have a laundry list of things to do based on your skill level. It seems pretty well defined to me.


So you disagree with all the professional race schools out there teaching you HT on the first morning of your first day of ever being on track, then?

I actually like the way those schools do it. They get you out on the track in a MUCH less daunting fashion with the group thing using different parts of the course (and going counter-race to start over) and get you used to being "on track" in a MUCH more laid back fashion. I think this is way better for the total newbie, but I also think most of the club type "novice" groups are really targeted more at people who have autocrossed and perhaps done other things where they already have *some* skills, they just haven't been on track yet.

Those schools have the entire track for the entire day, though, and don't have the advanced sessions to deal with. But I still say it's better to learn HT right off the bat than to develop the bad habit of NOT using HT.


--Donnie


No Donnie. I don't disagree with those Professional Race Schools approach at all. If you were at a Professional Race School under those conditions you describe. But Malia is not at that school under those conditions. Neither is any Novice Green group driver at a club DE weekend. Your argument proves my point. Using it to compare a Race School to a DE is a far stretch.

If you don't already know how to H&T before your 1st track event. Learn how to survive on track your first couple of events. There is plenty of time to learn more advanced techniques later.

_________________
http://www.greywinds.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:20 pm 
Offline
Mazda Crash Test Dummy
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:29 am
Posts: 472
Location: Greenville, NC
Ryan Holton wrote:
Stacy King wrote:
Which brings up another debate... to row through the gears while downshifting or not (which I think is related to how one Heel-toes.)

Which of course is related to overall speed through a corner (2nd gear vs. 3rd gear, 3rd gear vs 4th gear)... which of course is related to overall experience/confidence, and hardware... and of course, type of corner.


Its also related to transmission quality/condition.

My Miata HATED going 5-3, 5,4,3 was much smoother.


For me, 5-3 is a pretty good opportunity to do a money shift (5-1). That's what actually made me start heel-toeing and shifting down in sequence.

~~~~~~Flash Back Segway~~~~~~~

I was an intermediate student at VIR Full with Marvin McBride instructing. I did a money shift entering roller coaster at T14A. Got it sideways in the middle of the track but saved it at speed. Marvin says, "Good save!" We proceed on to T1 and towards the end of the braking zone Marvin says, "Can you heel & toe?" After I replied in the negative he informed me that I really needed to learn how in order to advance to the next level.

~~~~~~Flash Back End~~~~~~~

The next day I started to figure it out. Every stop light and stop sign became an opportunity to practice. I just recently quit doing it all the time (after 3 years) to get better gas mileage. In hind sight, I struggled with h-t at October's event. I think maybe it was the lack of practice that caused it.

_________________
“I feel safer on a racetrack than I do on Houston's freeways.” - A.J. Foyt

Kevin Butler
Mobetta Autosport Spec E30 #612
2003 C5 Z06 Corvette
AFR Miata, SM2 61, '93 w/200 SC'd RWHP - soon to be resurrected
Waaaay too many other projects....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:10 am 
Offline
Tire Nerd
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:40 pm
Posts: 1818
Location: Greenville, SC
Malia,

You've got great advice here in this thread. I will only add a few thoughts. Mentally, "begin with the end in mind." I would set that "end" at being able to soar into a turn-around cone at one of our autox airport courses, fast but smooth transition to maximum braking, then trail braking on turn-in while executing a perfectly smooth rev-matched downshift from 2nd to 1st. Of course complete this mental fantasy by apexing the cone with your rear tire 1" off it as you're rolling on the power just right. Fantasize doing this whole process with great balance and smoothness of all inputs all the while keeping your vision scanning ahead.

That's your end you place in your mind as the target. Break the process up into mini-goals (i.e. rev-matching downshifts from 4-3, no braking; then with braking; then 3-2 with none, then with, etc.) The main point I'm trying to make is program your mind first. Imagine doing it well. Practice it mentally. Imagine trying to do it for real, not quite getting it right, correcting, trying, correcting, etc. Then go out and physically practice it with the intent to make many mistakes so you can learn. Note all the areas where your physical response doesn't equal that mental practice and drill in on those for further mastery. Refine your mental model at that point based on real-world learning. Repeat.

Once you get it down pat, those autox turn-arounds will be a blast. For a given course you'll then be weighing whether a smooth 2-1 shift is best or holding in the clutch waiting to release it in 1st to get that perfectly timed rotation is better. :) (edit: assuming RWD drive here :) )

_________________
Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:14 pm 
Offline
!!!!!!11!111!11one one one
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:52 pm
Posts: 174
Location: Raleigh
Thanks for all the input. Dustin and I went out driving in the miata this weekend and we figured out that when I downshift I do not let the clutch out until after I turn. I think that might have been alot of why I didn't shift well at CMP. I have been working on making sure I always downshift in a straight line (at least for now). I have been playing with heel-toe alittle and found it to be much easier now that I understand better. I also found it easy today in my high heels, but guess that would look funny on track. :lol: Thanks again for all the advice (I didn't mean to start such a big discussion). I am gonna keep on practicing.

_________________
Malia Fredrickson
Clear Waters Travel
www.clearwaterstravel.com
919-656-8771


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:19 pm 
Offline
Queen of the Guinea Hens
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:32 pm
Posts: 3122
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
MaliaFredrickson wrote:
I also found it easy today in my high heels,


Then Pastorius should pick it up just fine!

Jim, you have no excuse for not doing it now. :twisted:


--Donnie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:00 am 
Offline
Only YOU can prevent forest fires
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 9:58 pm
Posts: 2204
Location: Apex
MaliaFredrickson wrote:
Thanks again for all the advice (I didn't mean to start such a big discussion). I am gonna keep on practicing.


Actually, this has been one of the best discussions we have had here.

_________________
Marty Howard
2011 NASA SE Factory Five Challenge Champion
Track Events Logistics Coordinator - TZC/THSCC
2007 Factory Five Challenge Car.
http://www.mh-motorsports.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:54 pm 
Offline
!!!!!!11!111!11one one one
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:52 pm
Posts: 174
Location: Raleigh
Guess what I did today! Heel-Toe!! My instructor (Bryan Steele) made me try it and then it went well so we started doing it more and by the end of the day thats all I was doing (not always wonderfully). Today at VIR was AWSOME (Thanks Stacy, Bryan and all who had a hand in) and I cannot wait till the next event! I am hooked (anyone know of a track babysitter?). :lol:

_________________
Malia Fredrickson
Clear Waters Travel
www.clearwaterstravel.com
919-656-8771


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group