Heel-Toe

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:18 am

I agree with Mike that H-T needs to be learned by constantly practicing on the street. I still disagree with others who say it can’t be learned that way because the amount of braking is so much less. I learned on the street as have many others here I’m sure. The “blip” has to be learned first, and can be done without ever touching the brake. Learning the amount of “blip” required to match revs at a certain speed is the first step using the method Tom suggested earlier in the thread. Once you are comfortable with that, then you can start learning to use the “blip” while braking.

Malia don’t rush it. It will take TONS of practice to get comfortable with H-T and even longer to do it very well on track. I doubt many here really claim to have actually “mastered” the technique. I’ll claim to be “pretty good” at H-T, but I’m no master by any means.

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:13 am

I agree with everything VK said. Including the part about not being a master of it.

I practiced it on the street some when I was learning it, and now I use it on the street when it's necessary, but otherwise I don't use it. I've gotten well programmed to knowing when it'll be necessary and just doing it instinctively somehow. But while the urge to do it is instinctive, the act of doing it is far from it. I'm decent, but that's about it. Sort of like the rest of my driving.

I think the biggest thing about HT is not to worry about it. Just practice as you can, do it where you can, and give it time to happen. It's not a "gotta have it mastered right now" kind of thing, certainly. Which is pretty much what the guys who were saying to wait mean, though I don't think you should wait to go ahead and start learning it. Just don't put any pressure on yourself.

--Donnie

steve remchak · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:19 am

Stacy King wrote:

Kevin Butler wrote:

At the Ross Bentley Seminar, Ross felt that H-T was extra input that could rob time from laps. His philosophy was that the car with the least amount of input would be the fastest.

Kevin, I think you mis-heard something... cause I distinctly remember him saying to get every ounce out of the car, HT must be done... maybe he said it about double-clutching, OR you may be confusing when he was talking about not downshifting so many gears, or not downshifting at all.

I'm pretty sure there's at least one thread, maybe two, on every forum I'm on right now.

Tells me more and more we need to have a HT clinic of some sort.

that is very progressive thinking Stacy. many clubs frown on teaching the technique, particularly to novice drivers. for example that club that rhymes with "3M-dubya" would have a cow if this issue were raised in class. :forum:

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:24 am

steve remchak wrote:

Stacy King wrote:

Kevin Butler wrote:

At the Ross Bentley Seminar, Ross felt that H-T was extra input that could rob time from laps. His philosophy was that the car with the least amount of input would be the fastest.

Kevin, I think you mis-heard something... cause I distinctly remember him saying to get every ounce out of the car, HT must be done... maybe he said it about double-clutching, OR you may be confusing when he was talking about not downshifting so many gears, or not downshifting at all.

I'm pretty sure there's at least one thread, maybe two, on every forum I'm on right now.

Tells me more and more we need to have a HT clinic of some sort.

that is very progressive thinking Stacy. many clubs frown on teaching the technique, particularly to novice drivers. for example that club that rhymes with "3M-dubya" would have a cow if this issue were raised in class. :forum:

I don't see why...like I said, most of the big schools teach it as part of their day 1. They usually split the track up into several sections and send students out to each section in groups and then rotate through the sections. One will be in a straight and be HT. One might be just making runs through a particularly tricky corner complex to show line. Another is threshold braking. At CMP you could use the skidpad as a group, too, for car control. *shrug*

--Donnie

Stacy King · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:28 am

The sooner you start learning it, the easier it will be to incorporate into your driving.

Ask me why I still pre-position :roll:

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:43 am

Stacy King wrote:

The sooner you start learning it, the easier it will be to incorporate into your driving.

Ask me why I still pre-position :roll:

By her own admission she had issues with downshifting at her first event and you want her to incorporate h&t? Good instruction should focus on getting the basics down. When you have mastered those or well on your way, then work on advanced techniques.

At least I have started to mastered rev-matching and that took me 4 or 5 events. Trust me,in a solid axle car, you know when I screw the pooch on that. And it ain't the tranny that I am worried about. More like the whole freaking rear end dropping on the track

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:59 am

jimpastorius wrote:

By her own admission she had issues with downshifting at her first event and you want her to incorporate h&t? Good instruction should focus on getting the basics down. When you have mastered those or well on your way, then work on advanced techniques.

Depends on what her downshifting problems were. It may just have been she was doing it a little early given she wasn't HT'ing and getting so much engine braking that it was unsettling her car. *shrug*

--Donnie

Stacy King · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:00 am

jimpastorius wrote:

Stacy King wrote:

The sooner you start learning it, the easier it will be to incorporate into your driving.

By her own admission she had issues with downshifting at her first event and you want her to incorporate h&t? Good instruction should focus on getting the basics down. When you have mastered those or well on your way, then work on advanced techniques.

I'm not exactly saying that for her second DE she should concentrate on it... but as I think I said before, anything that can be done on the street to "learn the car" is good, and As Soon As She Feels Comfortable starting to work HT into her learning, it will be better in the long run doing it in the relatively safe confines of a beginner run group than it might be waiting to do it in the always crowded intermediate groups.

Really and Truly, I think learning HT (and threshold braking for that matter) requires it's own event. Since the act of heel-toe downshifting is VERY vehicle dependent, and driver dependent (small feet, big feet, wide feet) in addition to being speed dependent... I think there needs to be a third alternate to learning it on track and learning it on the street.

Otherwise, I'm of the camp that thinks you can learn some useful things on the street (how your engine responds to blips for example) but to REALLY learn HT, it must be done under track conditions.

David White · **Joined:** Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:19 pm **Posts:** 54

steve remchak wrote:

that is very progressive thinking Stacy. many clubs frown on teaching the technique, particularly to novice drivers. for example that club that rhymes with "3M-dubya" would have a cow if this issue were raised in class. :forum:

tarheel bmwcca is very insistent that students know how to h-t before they are moved to advanced...i remember this coming up in an instructor meeting this past march...

David White · **Joined:** Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:19 pm **Posts:** 54

steve remchak wrote:

tried this in the Z06, as the pedals are too far apart.

time to fix the pedals...either find a way to move the brake pedal closer to the gas pedal (big hammer? :wink:

) or put something on the gas pedal that widens it (gets it closer to the brake pedal)

Stacy King · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:07 am

steve remchak wrote:

that is very progressive thinking Stacy. many clubs frown on teaching the technique, particularly to novice drivers. for example that club that rhymes with "3M-dubya" would have a cow if this issue were raised in class. :forum:

lol ... believe me, I'm pretty sure I'm a minority of one within our own ranks as well

And don't misunderstand... I'm not saying instructors should actively teach HT to beginning drivers just for the sake of teaching it... but I feel strongly that HT is a skill that needs to be learned, and as soon as one is comfortable incorporating into their skill set, the better off they will be.

I understand instructor's consternation about a beginner student trying it out on track... which is why I think it needs to be done in a controlled, but "at speed" environment.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:15 am

Stacy King wrote:

Ask me why I still pre-position :roll:

Assuming we are talking about the same thing, I do that as well. Is there a problem with that?

Stacy King · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:25 am

Vincent Keene wrote:

Stacy King wrote:

Ask me why I still pre-position :roll:

Assuming we are talking about the same thing, I do that as well. Is there a problem with that?

Different technique (steering) and one I personally don't think is as important as HT... but my point was (since you asked) that I've tried using a "locked" 9-3 hand position in my driving, but because I've pre-positioned my hands for so long, it simply screws me up if I try NOT pre-positioning on track... to the point where I don't even try since what little track time I get is so valuable to me.

Kevin Butler · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:35 am

Stacy King wrote:

Kevin Butler wrote:

At the Ross Bentley Seminar, Ross felt that H-T was extra input that could rob time from laps. His philosophy was that the car with the least amount of input would be the fastest.

Kevin, I think you mis-heard something...you may be confusing when he was talking about not downshifting so many gears...

Doh! You are correct sir!

Stacy King · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:06 am

Which brings up another debate... to row through the gears while downshifting or not (which I think is related to how one Heel-toes.)

Which of course is related to overall speed through a corner (2nd gear vs. 3rd gear, 3rd gear vs 4th gear)... which of course is related to overall experience/confidence, and hardware... and of course, type of corner.

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