THSCC Forums

Hey, I might know of one that will being going on sale at a VERY good price.

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Marty Howard
2011 NASA SE Factory Five Challenge Champion
Track Events Logistics Coordinator - TZC/THSCC
2007 Factory Five Challenge Car.
http://www.mh-motorsports.com

I am actually looking for something that has horsepower this time, so I may do a C4 Corvette assuming I can save up enough $$. Will use it for occasional driver/track car/some AX and keep the Miata and maybe turn it into a CSP car or something where it stands a chance of being competitive although that is becoming a question too.

Horsepower is over rated.....

At the very least it can mask a lot of other deficiencies (in both car and driver). But dang, it sure is fun!

I've driven a 400HP car on track, but I own two Spec Miatas for a reason.


--Donnie

But not torque

Body damage insurance?

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

I guess that's not it. So far I've done about 10x in body damage to the 400HP car on the street than ALL the body damage I've ever done to an SM. Ever.

And all that took was one suicidal deer.


--Donnie

People who spend all their time driving low horsepower cars usually say that. Instead of being flat footed most of the time on track I have to learn and manage control of the throttle. The flip side is I can improve my lap time with more speed. To each his own.



"Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you."

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http://www.greywinds.com

I was kidding!

But Graham you are correct that I have one less thing to manage. That's why I think a low horsepower car is the best for starting in HPDEs. You also learn that you have to do almost everything right to get any good lap times. Instills good habits for later.

R

Oh boy! A whole NEW direction!

I'd venture a guess that it would be much easier for a good low-hp driver to drive as well in a high-hp car, than vice-versa. This comes back to the question: are there two different lines for high-hp cars and low-hp cars? I, and a few others I respect, say no, there is no difference.

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Stacy King
Midlife Crisis Participant

I'm gonna jump in and venture that it is arguably just as difficult to drive a low HP car as a high HP car, just in a different way. With HP, you have to learn to throttle manage. But you don't have to worry about keeping the car in its powerband - or at least it isn't as critical, nor do you have the issue of having some slow-a** kill your momentum and then you have to get it back.

The other "problem" with high hp cars and noobs is that the potential for something bad to happen easily is thought to be more because there is more potential for higher speeds thus higher impacts. However, (and no Ryan I have no statistics to bear this out) most of the really bad carnage I have seen at track events is not the noobs who have instructors there to scream "HIT THE BRAKE" or "PULL THE F*@K into the pits; but with the experienced drivers in Vettes, P-Cars, Miate, Hondas, whatever, who are driving closer to the limit with greater potential for bad stuff to happen. Bottom line to me it is all about how serious the driver is about driving and how much the instructor is concerned with his/her improvement and not with signing off an unprepared student so they can go home.

Hasn't stopped you before, why stop now?

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

I'll give this another direction!

I submit there's no difference between "low horsepower" and "high horsepower" cars in terms of driving talent.

My theory is that a lot of people THINK the throttle (and usually the brake) is fairly binary in low horsepower cars (brakes because the cars are also usually light) because they can be pretty binary with them and be within a few tenths of the "really fast guys" and then they just assume that since they're running the same line, braking at the same place, etc, and that guy is still pulling them off the corner a bit, that the "really fast guys" are cheating or just have better prep.

The problem, obviously, is that they are wrong. The throttle is not binary, nor are the brakes. They don't understand things like trail brake by TURNING and not by applying the pedal. They don't understand that there actually is a time, even in a lowly no horsepower POS like a SM that it is okay to briefly be "coasting". They don't understand that if you can whap the throttle right here, you could have been rolling into it five feet earlier. And thus they really don't fully "get it." (And part of the problem with that is that coaching at most levels tells you, particularly in low horsepower cars that you're never coasting, that corners are almost all "regular" and can be treated as such, and a myriad of other things you must finally unlearn once you get fairly adept at the basics to finish getting really fast. I'm not there yet, and may never be.)

Once you master this, then moving to higher horsepower stuff is simply different amounts of gradual throttle. Sure, the penalties for overdoing it can be greater, and this is why you often see larger time spreads between the guys in the high horsepower cars than the low. Braking errors are usually magnified, too, since the high horsepower cars are typically heavier. But I submit that the truly talented high horsepower drivers can often jump into low horsepower stuff and be REALLY REALLY good REALLY quickly.

Leh Keen, Farnbacher Rolex GT driver and my One Lap partner this past year, showed me that. The guy has no serious karting experience and very little low horsepower experience, either. He jumped into my own gokarts and within a session was whipping the shit out of a bunch of people that are pretty fast in those things with a lot of experience. I feel like I know why, but I also know it's going to take a lot more experience on my own to replicate what he was doing. Don Knowles, more what I'd call a low horsepower guy in terms of experience (though he's certainly got more high horsepower experience that I'll ever have of ANY kind), took five sessions before he was what I'd call "good" at the track. And yet Leh was simply better somehow. And Leh outweighs Don I'd guess by 30 pounds and is REALLY tall.

This debate could get good. Another reason we need a forum software update is so we can get a popcorn emoticon.


--Donnie

Happy now?

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Donnie I'll agree that talent is independent of horsepower (I think that's what you meant). I'll also agree that if you have sound fundamentals moving up to higher horsepower should not be dramatic. Certainly there is a learning curve and its not trivial. But as long as you have sound fundamentals the move up should be pretty straight forward. Same for moving down. Problem with moving down is some folks may have developed bad habits that the HP can hide. Like smoothness and carrying momentum. And being aware of the balance of the car.

I know when I tried driving my buddies 70 Cyclone with 600++ HP I was well out of my element. I steered it around VIR full for the session. Nothing was familiar about it AT ALL. But given a bit more seat time I would have improved. I finally wond up following a Miata!

At least I got to turn 14 before spinning. He spun at turn 1! Later said the tires were crap.

I have nothing but respect for folks that drive well high horsepower cars. Its one variable, and a large one, that I really don't have to worry about.