THSCC Forums

Google images is your friend when time comes to argue on the internet

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q ... ages&gbv=2

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Since this is America and until the communists and the nanny-staters take over, we can make decisions based on our own feelings of safety, cost/benefit and organizations rules. THSCC has rules that it wants to enforce, NASA has others, Chin and PCA have some, Synergy has....well they don't have any they're just crazy, and we can sign up or not based on whatever we find beneficial.

For me its track time, I paid $X for an event and I want to be on track, not waiting around. If I don't run time trials, my track time is reduced. (I spose I could run TT since I have a roll bar, but I would run too hard and probably crash) - OOPS sorry this is supposed to be a PC rant . I have done 1 Tarheel event at VIRN in April and enjoyed it. I've never driven in the rain before It is real bumpy at the end of turn one and it is fun to do syncronized car spinning in T17 .

Personally, I would feel safer with a harness bar that is correctly mounted w/harnesses and race seats than with stock seats and belts. But that is me. I am more concerned with who I am riding with and where they are going with me in the car. I've ridden on track with a bunch of people from instructors, to other participants in cars from Miatas to Vettes to a 385 rwhp 1400lb tube frame car and only once have I felt skeered.

Everyone has a different level of what is safe. Some people run as hard during their de session as they do (would) in aTT. Ryan will apparently drive in the grass/dirt/gators during a TT but not in a DE. Jim thinks that's stupid. Ron doesn't feel safe in a TT without a Rollcage. I just wanna drive. I prefer R-comps in AX/Track anything. I don't like a car that is sliding and I am used to driving on them. I started out on Street tires in both AX and track and I still usually run the opening session on street tires. In both cases I agree that drivers should start on street tires and learn about grip and lack of it.

I just wanted to add my $.02 and want to keep this going until it eventually and inevitably devolves into ITBL.

Not true. Ryan will drive in the grass & dirt anytime including on the street!

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

Must be one of those eastern NC things!

-Matt (<grew up in Rocky Mount, the City on the Rise)

Where your sisters are your wives!

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Yup, figured as much, you are in the same camp as Graham. You just don't get it because you have never done it.



So how do you mount a harness bar correctly? Who tested it? Can I get a copy of those test results?

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Hey, I never camp with Graham, he doesn't like to sleep in tents. No, I'm too lazy to put a fire extinguisher in my car and my first TH event was in April. I probably would have kilt myself Friday in the rain because I had no tires and I would have been all over the slick gators and the mud because I would drive the TT more aggressively than the DE. Au contraire, I drive about 2 or 3 laps during the de that are pretty full out until my tires get greasy or my concentration wanders, or I hit traffic or a tire wall. I will not drive any more aggressively in a de. I have proven with a lap timer that over the length of VIR full my times are consistent - slow but consistent. I am hp and tire limited. I am not going to win any TT so why risk wrecking or worse for an extra 1 second over 2.75 minutes. If you correlate this to AX the assumption would be that we would drive timed runs crazier than fun runs. How many hands do I see that think this is the case? waiting waiting...... That is why I like AX, it is competitive which DE is not for me. I am always a target now that I am not in the novice groups. If/When I run another Tarheel event I will put in a Firebottle and run TT. My deal is all about track time and lack of funds. Whoever gives me more track time is who I want to run with. I won't run with NASA because the stupid racer people take up the track time and I don't get as much. IT is ALL about me.

The harness bar deal was in response to someone's (Stacy's ?) comment about homemade HB's etc. Some of the one's I've seen are mounted to seat belt pickups or secure mounting points and are braced to the floor. I'll bet there are roll bar welds that are worse, or bolts that are missing on roll bars. How many stock seats have broken after a crash because they are old, worn out , not meant to take the impact of 200lbs in a rear end crash etc. Do you have test results for your rollbar?

If you don't feel safe w/o a roll bar in a TT (Assuming a hardtop) that is fine. If a club doesn't feel that they want to require it that is their perogative. We can disagree over if we think they are crazy or just libertarian.

This and Graham’s original points bring up two other topics.

Rob’s point sort of gets to the argument I see frequently on Porsche forums which is “Why can you use stock seats and belts in DE?”. Specifically those who complain about putting 5 or 6 point harnesses on their stock seats and then are told they can’t use the stock seat for that. My two cents is that most organizers would love to require full on cages, etc. but they know they can’t require this. Additionally it is likely that your first event, you are going to have a 100% stock car (from a safety perspective). So for the stock cars, I would guess that the rules tend to “trust the manufacture”. That means we can assume that Porsche, Ford, whoever designed the seats, belts, etc. to work together. Then you have the argument “Do you really want me to be using 30+ year old OEM belts in my classic Porsche?”. Well the answer to that is “No, if your OEM belts are so old/worn/crappy, why do you drive with them on the street that way”. If would be your responsibility to make sure they are at least to OEM spec regarding function. But as soon as you start messing with the factory design, then you enter the realm of following some type of GCR to ensure that whatever you build at least follows a formula (diameter of tubing, etc.) that is supposed to work. You mention that cages are not crash tested. True, but hopefully it was built to specifications that “should” make it safe. And someone could be sloppy in their car prep and slip badly installed or maintained harness, etc. past inspectors. So even if you do everything right, something still could go wrong and if you do something wrong (bad car prep) then your odds of something going wrong increases.

That other issue is that I see Graham arguing that there is not a lot of difference between DE and TT. What he is looking for is a reduction in the safety requirements for TT (to match DE). My view is that you can take the same logic and make a better argument that you really should use TT safety requirements and use those in DE.

_________________
Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Yup, still don't get it

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Or to use the Libertarian point of view, if you are only endangering yourself by driving without a rollbar in a TT, then if you flip doing 155 at the end of the VIR straight and land turtle and the roof/windshield/ground meets your head driving it into your neck instantly ending your miserable existence, then "Oh Well, Hope you have good insurance". You knew the risks and signed the waiver. You can't make the arguement that you are endangering others because they all have the approved rollbar/cage, no harness bar, street tires and are not driving on the gators or the grass (well except for Ryan) You can make the arguement that the waiver is not really a get out of lawsuit free card and I think that John Edwards is back in the one world of lawyering again, but if you make that arguement it applies to "Safe" DE's and TT's too.

The Germans let you drive on the Nurburgring for 15 Euros or so and ride around with Sabine at racing speeds because while they may be communists (yeah I know not really, but since Ryan put me in Graham's camp, I'll camp out with him for awhile) they do put the responsibility on the driver to not be stupid.

See you're misquoting me

I am not picking on you Rob, you are just giving me good ammo.

Unfortunately the world (at least the US) doesn’t think that way. You can’t assume that you are only endangering yourself. If the organizers of the event just let you do whatever you want (Kill yourself for all we care! You have been warned!), then someone else (spouse, etc.) is not going to see things the same way you did before you died a fiery death. They will consider the organizers of the event to have been negligent and at fault. They should have protected you from yourself! This means that you are endangering the sport itself. Kill enough people at DE events and nobody will put them on. So, they will do their best to put on a safe event with the realization that there is a natural increased risk of death or injury even if they do their best.

I am saying a lot considering I have only been to a single DE event and someone please correct me if I am wrong.

_________________
Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Anyhow, where is Graham? I mean he had to have known that this was going to create a thread like this. He stirs the pot and then just leaves!

_________________
Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Very well put Richard! I tried writing the same thing earlier, but it got way too muddied.

_________________
Stacy King
Midlife Crisis Participant

I should have put the sarcasm light on I don't think that any amount of roll bars/cages/waivers will stop anyone from suing. James Sokolov is always there. But my scenario (albeit somewhat less gruesomely) is a real possibility. I think all my safety gear including my race seat, harnesses, rollbar, helmet, gloves, shoes etc all say "Motorsports is dangerous. If you wreck and are maimed, don't blame us" (Or something to that effect). The question is what level of risk each club is willing to take on to meet the level of safety they feel necessary. As participants, we can all decide how unstreetable we feel our cars need to be to participate at the level we want and with the clubs that meet those needs. We may all disagree with each other. To a great extent this thread just started as a response to the post about needing a roll bar to run TT and the discussion around that.

I still say that the presence or absence of a rollbar in TT will not be the deciding factor in lawsuit success/avoidance. It will be the quality of the instruction and the organization of the track and the event organizers that will be the deciding factory.

I read a post on another forum regarding someone who was bragging about going off multiple times at a DE and thinking that is OK, in fact a good learning method (and I mean like more than 2 p/day) Oh yeah, and he is an instructor. He considered us easterners up tight because we consider parking you after 2. Now that is a lawsuit waiting for a Sokolov to come around