R Compounds or not, that is the question

clinehall · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:51 am

I am thinking about going to Rcompounds for tracking the Mini. Currently I run stock Mini 16in wheels that weigh 17.6 pounds and azeni's (I think new ones are going for about $90. Been pricing R compounds and looking around on the internet. I have found a set of Kosei K1 17in (about 15 pounds) with Kumho 710's with about 65% of wear left for $900. Is this worth it or do I need to go through another set of azeni's?

Gwen Habenicht · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:43 am

Rota Slipstreams and V710’s, 215/40/16. If you’re going to spend $900 anyway-do it right!

Rotas are “legal” (off the shelf) lightweight wheels that you can also use in AX, so you could kill 2 birds with one stone. Seriously, Cline, as club champion, you don’t use second hand, or cheap equipment on the golf course. Treat yourself as well on the track!

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:50 am

Gwen Baake wrote:

Rota Slipstreams and V710’s, 215/40/16. If you’re going to spend $900 anyway-do it right!

Rotas are “legal” (off the shelf) lightweight wheels that you can also use in AX, so you could kill 2 birds with one stone. Seriously, Cline, as club champion, you don’t use second hand, or cheap equipment on the golf course. Treat yourself as well on the track!

Cline has climbed out of his "stock class" training wheels with his track prep. "legality" isnt really an issue

I have heard the stories of how Cline gets some of his golfing equipment, so he isnt afraid of used equipment. Or getting a deal in an estate sale :wink:

Matt Nicholson · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:02 am

Has Rota solved their breaking problem? Just about the only wheel failures I've heard of at track events has been Rota wheels.

+1 for the K1s. Good strong wheel, and not terribly heavy.

If you only have a handful of track events under you belt, stick with Azenis.

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:23 am

Used r compounds are a waste of money. You would be better off buying the wheels with the tires dismounted and save a few bucks.

I would suggest sticking to street tires until your instructor(s) tell you that you are ready to move to r-compounds. Once you move, you will not want to go back and it gets more expensive. Plus it gets more dangerous.

Bernie Baake · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:59 am

Matt Nicholson wrote:

Has Rota solved their breaking problem? Just about the only wheel failures I've heard of at track events has been Rota wheels.

That was a bad batch of Rota attack rims four years ago. Rota has replaced the defective ones if you experienced a problem. Slipstreams have had no problems that I'm aware of.

Stacy King · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:16 pm

clinehall wrote:

I am thinking about going to Rcompounds for tracking the Mini. Currently I run stock Mini 16in wheels that weigh 17.6 pounds and azeni's (I think new ones are going for about $90. Been pricing R compounds and looking around on the internet. I have found a set of Kosei K1 17in (about 15 pounds) with Kumho 710's with about 65% of wear left for $900. Is this worth it or do I need to go through another set of azeni's?

My personal saga... been tracking now for 8 years... 3-7 events per year... started on all-season street tires, moved to dry street tires, then Azenis, back to ultra-hp streets, (even a few all-season events when I first bought the bimmer)... and I've JUST now made the move to r-comps (RA-1). Not because people told me I should change (cause they've been telling me that for a couple years now), but because I personally felt I'd reached a plateau on street tires... and of course, the opportunity arose, thanks to a more than thorough thrashing of my BFG-KD's and Mark Cooper. So I tried them the other weekend at VIR and was very impressed. BUT... the experience I've had on streets is invaluable because now at least, I can RECOGNIZE when the tires are saving me out there.

If you don't feel you can do that yet, then I'd wait on the tires. Even if you do feel ready, I'd go with full-tread RA-1s... I was very impressed with their progressive breakaway, communication, and ability to recover after lock-up (easier to modulate at threshold braking than street tires.)

clinehall · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:59 pm

Ryan Holton wrote:

Gwen Baake wrote:

Rota Slipstreams and V710’s, 215/40/16. If you’re going to spend $900 anyway-do it right!

Rotas are “legal” (off the shelf) lightweight wheels that you can also use in AX, so you could kill 2 birds with one stone. Seriously, Cline, as club champion, you don’t use second hand, or cheap equipment on the golf course. Treat yourself as well on the track!

Cline has climbed out of his "stock class" training wheels with his track prep. "legality" isnt really an issue

I have heard the stories of how Cline gets some of his golfing equipment, so he isnt afraid of used equipment. Or getting a deal in an estate sale :wink:

Vell, my grandmothers name was Nora Goldstein!

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:04 pm

Stacy,

Another great R-comp option imo is the BFG R1. They have excellent communication and a reasonable tractive force curve beyond the peak -- very easy tires to modulate from my experience. However, these are not "drive to the event" type tires like an RA1/888 or NT-01. The NT-01 is extremely easy to drive for an R-comp also...extremely easy. I've not tried the V710 yet, but the Hoosiers are horrible imo with poor contact patch communication, and once you go over their peak...well, the "fun" begins.

By 1985 I had been autocrossing for 10 years and doing track events for 4 years when I switched to R-comps and never went back. This was with the Goodyear Gatorback "S" compound tires which were the first r-comp type DOT tires. If they had been available, I would have been using an R-comp DOT tires well before then. I think serious autocross ability/experience is a huge factor in whether a rather new HPDE participant is ready for R-comps on track. Depending on the person (and there is a WIDE variation here) and their ability to learn, there are some benefits to not using street tires too long.

Chuck

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:26 pm

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

Depending on the person (and there is a WIDE variation here) and their ability to learn, there are some benefits to not using street tires too long.

Chuck

I have to disagree with this. If you are doing HPDE, it is not being timed and you have no real goal to move beyond that; the risk factor outweighs the advantages running r-compounds. It probably is more just ego.

An r-compound masks way too many mistakes and when you step over the line, it will end in disaster.

I strongly believe if you are going to run r-compounds then your car should be set up based on solo 1 or tt safety rules.

It would be interesting to compare contact incident reports between street tires and r-compound tires.

Stacy King · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:28 pm

jimpastorius wrote:

[
I have to disagree with this. If you are doing HPDE, it is not being timed and you have no real goal to move beyond that; the risk factor outweighs the advantages running r-compounds. It probably is more just ego.

An r-compound masks way too many mistakes and when you step over the line, it will end in disaster.

I strongly believe if you are going to run r-compounds then your car should be set up based on solo 1 or tt safety rules.

It would be interesting to compare contact incident reports between street tires and r-compound tires.

Excellent points Jim, and I should have pointed out in my saga that I added a 4-point roll bar and harnesses just last year... would not even consider r-comps before that for the very reasons you stated.

clinehall · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:35 pm

Got the Harness, roll bar is in the garage, but I do hear you Jim.

Stacy King · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:46 pm

I may be setting myself up for some serious flaming... but one issue I see with the autocross argument as a benefit is that the competitive fire is fueled early and often... many times (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) at an "at all costs" expense including moving up to r-comps before correct technique is learned.

Anyone will no doubt be faster (and often WAY faster) on r-comps... but generally won't be any better by starting to use them earlier. Eventually, they'll notice drivers on lesser tires going faster than they are and wondering why. To go back to the golf analogy: practice doesn't make perfect... perfect practice makes perfect. The same applies to driving on track. The same physics and techniques apply to driving fast correctly whether using street tires or r-comps (albeit with some tweaks in timing) but the rewards, AND the risks are magnified.

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:54 pm

jimpastorius wrote:

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

Depending on the person (and there is a WIDE variation here) and their ability to learn, there are some benefits to not using street tires too long.

Chuck

I have to disagree with this. If you are doing HPDE, it is not being timed and you have no real goal to move beyond that; the risk factor outweighs the advantages running r-compounds. It probably is more just ego.

An r-compound masks way too many mistakes and when you step over the line, it will end in disaster.

I strongly believe if you are going to run r-compounds then your car should be set up based on solo 1 or tt safety rules.

It would be interesting to compare contact incident reports between street tires and r-compound tires.

I guess I'm basing my opinion too much on my past experience and not what instructors are typically seeing as HPDE students these days. I can imagine however green students showing up with 400+hp cars and little skill -- glad I don't instruct anymore. However, I can't relate to people thinking of "typical" R-comp tires like RA1/888/NT-01 as some vaunted devil's brew type of thing. These particular tires are not THAT much different than a RE-01R, Neova, etc. They are very forgiving over the top of the curve, give plenty of feedback including auditory when you demand too much slip angle from them.

Like I mentioned up above, there is a WIDE variation in the rate of learning for people, and I never had any issue quickly learning and adpating to R-comps of all types. I'm sure there are plenty of people whose experience would be different.

That said, I'd be all in favor of HPDE rules requiring street tires for all cars (ducks flying fruit).

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:06 pm

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

That said, I'd be all in favor of HPDE rules requiring street tires for all cars (ducks flying fruit).

Boooo Hisssss

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