2008 THSCC-TZC Proposed Schedle

Stacy King · **Posted:** Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:02 am

Look... I'm pissed, and I'm frustrated, and I'm proud of our program. and I'm F-ing jealous as hell that NASA gets all the attention.

You can't tell me that NASA doesn't breed the racer mindset in the DE world. Where you feel you MUST be able to write off your car to do a DE. I see it every day on other boards, east coast, west coast, mid west... doesn't matter. I see it every event in one form or another during registration. Don't get me wrong, It's not just NASA. I just happen to be singling out NASA right now.

All my ranting is probably pointless anyway... I'm sure between NASA-SE and NASA-MA they will be doing two events a month soon. We'll be relegated to weekday south course and Rockingham events because we don't bring in 500 participants and have national sponsors and magazine coverage. The time of local club track days is ending, guess I should just accept it huh?

jimpastorius wrote:

Wow, Stacy that is some pretty broad generalizations about NASA and auto-x experience.

First and foremost, comparing THSCC HPDE to a NASA weekend is like comparing apples and oranges. The NASA weekend covers the whole range for motorsports enthusiast with over 500 participants. I doubt their HPDE incident report is any longer than THSCC's.

I hope your opinions are yours and not representative of the THSCC TT program. When one program starts to bash another, that sends a red flag up for me.

They are broad, they are generalizations, they are my own... whether or not they are shared, I can't say. Since this is a member's only board, I feel slightly better about speaking my mind (though I've done it elsewhere as well) since its OUR program I'm fighting for.

But you're both right... I shouldn't fight tooth and nail with a direct competitor for our DE events which I personally feel are far superior. Shutting up now. See you on track... just not at a NASA event.

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

Quote:

Enter the red mist.

I know everybody's afraid of the noobs and the experienced idiots going out there & killing themselves, but I like the NASA CircuitX atmosphere. Wish we could have more of it, but we US Americans have to save the idiots from themselves instead of letting natural selection sort it out. Oh, well...

I do sometimes worry at those events that somebody's going to spin off the track and ball up something that will have to be dragged back up to the paddock, thus reducing my playtime, though. Haven't seen any crashes yet, though. It's mostly people going out and cruising around with the seat leaned back and the left hand on top of the steering wheel. :lol:

Stacy King · **Posted:** Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:17 am

Kevin Allen wrote:

I know everybody's afraid of the noobs and the experienced idiots going out there & killing themselves, but I like the NASA CircuitX atmosphere. Wish we could have more of it, but we US Americans have to save the idiots from themselves instead of letting natural selection sort it out. Oh, well...

In all seriousness and level-headness... its not the noobs, nor the experienced people I'm worried about. It's those intermediate people who THINK they are experienced because they've been told they are experienced after two or three events.

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:30 am

Stacy King wrote:

Look... I'm pissed, and I'm frustrated, and I'm proud of our program. and I'm F-ing jealous as hell that NASA gets all the attention.

At least you are honest and up front about it.

They make no bones about their top level DE being a feeder system for future racers and instructors. And I think that is a very good thing. And that carries over in the classrooms. They are no nonsense and can put the fear of god into you.

There are inherent issues with that though, not all of the participants are future racers and/or instructors.

Now this leaves a nice window of opportunity for THSCC. Not all of the participants want this. Some are quite happy doing DE with more liberal passing and don't want to mess with the rest of us who might have loftier aspirations.

The secret is how to market to these individuals.

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:34 am

Ryan Holton wrote:

David Teague wrote:

Ryan is going a bit overboard to say that experienced auto-xers would not be able to handle patriot in a timed event,

I think you are wrong and not reading what I am saying.

You have VIR-P
You setup a timer
You have people show up and run the course
You get your time
You compare that time to your buddies time
You just need .3 sec to beat your buddy/guy parked next to you/Tarzan

Enter the red mist.

That's gonna get someone hurt IMHO and not necessarily the experienced entrants, but the rank novices. I have seen near on course collisions at autoxes due to novices getting lost and almost getting in the way of another car.

We do it in autox all the time (timing that is) but the speeds are lower with less hard objects to hit. I know personally, that in the autox environment, I have done some stupid shit just to try to win a $5 trophy. All you have to have is a thread on an internet forum like the current "Sanford Beatdown" thread. Take that to VIR-P and its gonna get ugly

This is essentially the way we used to run our "Hot Shoe" driving school with the BMWCCA National Capital Chapter up at Summit Point each fall back in the mid 1980's. Back then we timed laps at "HPDEs" (we just called them driving schools or track days). There were 4 or 5 of us always in the hunt for FTD which I nailed down a few times (first generation R-comps sure helped -- Goodyear Gatorback "S" compounds), and it was no holes barred competition between us for fastest lap.

However, all of us drove conservatively with respect to others and ourselves. None of the fastest drivers ever had an off with any damage. Granted this was a different era (Bavaria only had 240hp w/3000 lbs similar to others). However, we did have some less experienced drivers total cars out there.

It was the continual stream of "new" drivers without the ability to control themselves that created the insurance environment we have today for track events. I guess it was bound to happen as often we are faced with a small minority of people creating restraints everyone else is forced to accept. I suppose there is no easy way to screen out potential problem drivers since everyone's opinion of "too much" varies. And yeah, those "new" drivers usually got into trouble with a number of events experience under their belt...you know, after they were "experienced." :wink:

None of the drivers I knew who totaled cars had any autox experience fwiw.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Lemme just make a couple of points without a lot of club bashing:

- If VIR-P was priced at half of what they charge we/d probably run a THSCC event there. It would probably be more conservative than what NASA finds acceptable, with qualification and safety requirements. The number of entrants we would draw with those restrictions won't pay the bills at current pricing. Opening it to novices and cars w/o safety prep and a wider audience is what lets NASA be able to do it.

- I have run and instructed with a lot of clubs, and I can tell you that THSCC is very conservative in choosing to put on an event. We get all our ducks in a row and won't take a lot of chances or experiments. In my experience, NASA will try things and take logistical chances that we just won't. Nothing wrong with that, just different.

- THSCC has been in existence for 40+ years because we do a lot of pre-planning and contingency and just plain don't take a lot of risks. It helps that there are a lot of smart people helping run the show here. BMWCCA seems to be the only organization I have run with which is even more conservative than THSCC.

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:55 am

MikeWhitney wrote:

Lemme just make a couple of points without a lot of club bashing:

- If VIR-P was priced at half of what they charge we/d probably run a THSCC event there. It would probably be more conservative than what NASA finds acceptable, with qualification and safety requirements. The number of entrants we would draw with those restrictions won't pay the bills at current pricing. Opening it to novices and cars w/o safety prep and a wider audience is what lets NASA be able to do it.

- I have run and instructed with a lot of clubs, and I can tell you that THSCC is very conservative in choosing to put on an event. We get all our ducks in a row and won't take a lot of chances or experiments. In my experience, NASA will try things and take logistical chances that we just won't. Nothing wrong with that, just different.

- THSCC has been in existence for 40+ years because we do a lot of pre-planning and contingency and just plain don't take a lot of risks. It helps that there are a lot of smart people helping run the show here. BMWCCA seems to be the only organization I have run with which is even more conservative than THSCC.

Well stated Mike. - AB

KendtEklund · **Joined:** Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:29 pm **Posts:** 1204

Aaron Buckley wrote:

MikeWhitney wrote:

Lemme just make a couple of points without a lot of club bashing:

- If VIR-P was priced at half of what they charge we/d probably run a THSCC event there. It would probably be more conservative than what NASA finds acceptable, with qualification and safety requirements. The number of entrants we would draw with those restrictions won't pay the bills at current pricing. Opening it to novices and cars w/o safety prep and a wider audience is what lets NASA be able to do it.

- I have run and instructed with a lot of clubs, and I can tell you that THSCC is very conservative in choosing to put on an event. We get all our ducks in a row and won't take a lot of chances or experiments. In my experience, NASA will try things and take logistical chances that we just won't. Nothing wrong with that, just different.

- THSCC has been in existence for 40+ years because we do a lot of pre-planning and contingency and just plain don't take a lot of risks. It helps that there are a lot of smart people helping run the show here. BMWCCA seems to be the only organization I have run with which is even more conservative than THSCC.

Well stated Mike. - AB

Which is why THZ/THSCC seems like an ideal starting point for track events.

CosbyWood · **Posted:** Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:08 pm

Information overload. I like all that is coming out of this. It's very helpful.

Stacy, thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll keep that in mind regardless of what I do this year. With that in mind, I still am going to wait for another year before I really anticipate getting into our track program. This does make it seem easier to swallow though. Thanks.

Jim, thanks to you too. Glad to know that my nonsense is actually a plan.

Vincent, no thanks to you.

Besides, didn't you know that AWD stands for All Water Drive? :wink:

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:29 pm

MikeWhitney wrote:

- THSCC has been in existence for 40+ years because we do a lot of pre-planning and contingency and just plain don't take a lot of risks. It helps that there are a lot of smart people helping run the show here. BMWCCA seems to be the only organization I have run with which is even more conservative than THSCC.

+1.

THSCC has done an outstanding job with how they have managed the introduction to track events, and it didn't happen by accident. There are some really dedicated people with the proper focus and attitude making it happen, and they are doing an excellent job. The best run track events I've ever attended have been run by the BMWCCA and THSCC.

RobLupella · **Posted:** Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:49 pm

Stacy King wrote:

CosbyWood wrote:

I'm very happy that we haven't turned this ugly, and I am being very sincere on this.

Good people here, we mean well

Quote:

Ok, from the top. Kevin has been trying to get me to do an HPDE, and he's trying his hardest (well almost). The cost isn't appealing, but that isn't what's really holding me back. I know you've got to pay to play and I'm alright with that. I will eventually get out there, I'm just not mentally ready for it.

Your autocross and rallycross experience will certainly lessen the learning curve, but there's also a point where your techniques will translate into things you shouldn't do on track. I imagine there's a point where your auto & rally-cross habits will start to make that learning curve more severe (maybe some others can attest to the validity of that or not, I dunno).

Quote:

I will say this about Patriot. I can't imagine having more than 10 people on that track at once. Way to small for anything of that magnitude in my mind, no matter how well run it is. :shock:

I can see how it was a problem in the past with off's and finding the walls very unappealling.

The offs on Patriot course had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with multiple cars on track at the same time (we capped the 15-min sessions at 12-15 cars). They had to do with people pushing in places they shouldn't on that track (in the track's defense, it was brand new to everyone except Mike Whitney who had all of three laps on it at medium speed.)

The majority of incidents happened in our time trials anyway... I think there were only one or two in the DE portion of the weekend.

Quote:

So, I guess we just won't worry about Patriot here which I'm ok with. A little disappointed, but not all is lost. We've still got many good points going on, and that makes it more worthwhile. Like I said, as soon as I get a little more mentally prepared, then I'll be out there trying to keep on the pavement. It just won't be this year. :wink:

I hope you understand where I'm coming from:
#1... I'd rather see you spend $300 for a full weekend with us then $360 for 4 separate 2-hour blocks without any instruction on a circuit that WILL bite back if you get in over your head.

#2... I just don't like feeding the NASA machine

I've found my AX experience very helpful on track. The biggest adjustment is slowing and smoothing the inputs. (I do not have the smoothest AX inputs either). YOur car control skills will be of immense benefit on the track. My biggest problem is going back to AX, I have a hard time with the more aggressive inputs. In all the HPDE's that I've been to the green (lowest) groups have good instructors who keep the event safe.

I have run with NASA, Mazdadrivers, Chin, and two Porsche groups and have not felt that any of them were unsafe. Do not take Steve's advice and try to be Prov.Solo with Chin. (They wouldn't let you anyway w/o experience). Take the instructor and learn. I did NASA at R.Atlanta and while the track time for HPDE was not the greatest for the price, they were well organized and safe, especially with all the concrete there. Most of the flatbed cars were from the Thunder races.

I have not run thscc yet :oops:

but they are probably the most conservative of the groups so you would be safe with them (and so would your non-disposible car.) When you feel ready, do it and it will be a good thing.

David Teague · **Posted:** Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:10 pm

KendtEklund wrote:

Which is why THZ/THSCC seems like an ideal starting point for track events.

Kendt,
When I was working for NASA I even said that exact thing to someone who as asking about getting thier son on track who had never auto-x'd or been on track and was asking Chris Cobetto and I if he though Nasa would be a good place to start. I told him that he should have no issues, but that finding a Smaller Program like Thscc to run with before doing his first NASA event would not be a bad thing at all, even Cobetto agreed with that.

I was going to say more but Mike stated it very well.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:11 pm

RobLupella wrote:

Stacy King wrote:

CosbyWood wrote:

I'm very happy that we haven't turned this ugly, and I am being very sincere on this.

Good people here, we mean well

Quote:

Ok, from the top. Kevin has been trying to get me to do an HPDE, and he's trying his hardest (well almost). The cost isn't appealing, but that isn't what's really holding me back. I know you've got to pay to play and I'm alright with that. I will eventually get out there, I'm just not mentally ready for it.

Your autocross and rallycross experience will certainly lessen the learning curve, but there's also a point where your techniques will translate into things you shouldn't do on track. I imagine there's a point where your auto & rally-cross habits will start to make that learning curve more severe (maybe some others can attest to the validity of that or not, I dunno).

Quote:

I will say this about Patriot. I can't imagine having more than 10 people on that track at once. Way to small for anything of that magnitude in my mind, no matter how well run it is. :shock:

I can see how it was a problem in the past with off's and finding the walls very unappealling.

The offs on Patriot course had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with multiple cars on track at the same time (we capped the 15-min sessions at 12-15 cars). They had to do with people pushing in places they shouldn't on that track (in the track's defense, it was brand new to everyone except Mike Whitney who had all of three laps on it at medium speed.)

The majority of incidents happened in our time trials anyway... I think there were only one or two in the DE portion of the weekend.

Quote:

So, I guess we just won't worry about Patriot here which I'm ok with. A little disappointed, but not all is lost. We've still got many good points going on, and that makes it more worthwhile. Like I said, as soon as I get a little more mentally prepared, then I'll be out there trying to keep on the pavement. It just won't be this year. :wink:

I hope you understand where I'm coming from:
#1... I'd rather see you spend $300 for a full weekend with us then $360 for 4 separate 2-hour blocks without any instruction on a circuit that WILL bite back if you get in over your head.

#2... I just don't like feeding the NASA machine

I've found my AX experience very helpful on track. The biggest adjustment is slowing and smoothing the inputs. (I do not have the smoothest AX inputs either). YOur car control skills will be of immense benefit on the track. My biggest problem is going back to AX, I have a hard time with the more aggressive inputs. In all the HPDE's that I've been to the green (lowest) groups have good instructors who keep the event safe.

I have run with NASA, Mazdadrivers, Chin, and two Porsche groups and have not felt that any of them were unsafe. Do not take Steve's advice and try to be Prov.Solo with Chin. (They wouldn't let you anyway w/o experience). Take the instructor and learn. I did NASA at R.Atlanta and while the track time for HPDE was not the greatest for the price, they were well organized and safe, especially with all the concrete there. Most of the flatbed cars were from the Thunder races.

I have not run thscc yet :oops:

but they are probably the most conservative of the groups so you would be safe with them (and so would your non-disposible car.) When you feel ready, do it and it will be a good thing.

sar-casm (sar kaz em) n. 1. A taunting or contemptuously ironic remark.
; Webster's II circa 1984

no Cos, Chin would probably not agree to prov. solo in your case (ya never know though). without instruction most of us just learn bad habits.

what a lot of people seem to overlook in the green groups i believe, is the fact that no one is holding a gun to your head. if it is too fast then back out to your comfort zone. if you are afraid you won't be able to excercise self control then the track is no place for you.

if you are somewhere in between these two ranges, and if you get a case of "the mist" and do something stupid, well then you won't be alone Cosby. BMWCCA VIR-G 03/2006 boy did i get my ass chewed.

hey Lupella, tighten up would ya. :twisted:

RobLupella · **Posted:** Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:19 pm

yeah, I got the sarkasm [sic], it was a double sarkasm back at those who think Chin is a bunch of yahoo idiots :wink:

(although they did let you out on track alone...) :twisted:

(sarkasm)

George Bright · **Posted:** Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:16 pm

Stacy King wrote:

Look... I'm pissed, and I'm frustrated, and I'm proud of our program. and I'm F-ing jealous as hell that NASA gets all the attention.

Well NASA did put a man on the moon. :user:

THSCC Forums

2008 THSCC-TZC Proposed Schedle

Who is online