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no doubt. I just didn't have the nerve to do it the first time on that track, the first time in that car, and the first time in a front wheel drive car. Who knows, maybe next time.

adamb

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Adam Breakey
Founder - www.autocrossforum.com
SS 75 Red(isfasterthanyellow) Z06

case in point, at the Chin event in july i passed Steve out of 6 and he had his miata glued to my rear bumper in oak tree. wirh 80 or so HP less.

Don't feel inferior about that... there ain't NOBODY who would / could get anywhere near the limit at T10 the first time on the track... VERY HIGHLY UNLIKELY they would / could the first time in an unfamiliar car...

And if ANYBODY were to pull it off... I got only two things to say... they're crazy as hell... and lucky as hell... and it's gotta be BOTH... no other way... PERIOD! Michael Schumacher included...

And that's the name of that tune...

The one really nice thing about T10 though... it's about as safe a place as you can have for a turn of that speed... assuming you're a driver that knows how to go off track correctly...

Try this... get to an entry / cornering speed you're comfortable with, say leaving the usual few feet of track... and it's being left because you didn't need it because you weren't going at a high enough speed or apexing EARLY enough... then doing the same thing you've been doing change one thing... just start turning in a little earlier and a little earlier until the car HAS to have ALL the pavement that's there... then you'll know how it can be done with the least loss of speed scrubbed off, or wasted momentum... from there you might be able to increase the speed while perhaps moving the apex back a tad later... the main issue at T10 is it's very difficult to make oneself turn in anywhere near as early as you need to... when I get it right I'm turning in at about the moment the very leading edge of the curbing on the inside just comes into my view after exiting the Uphill Esses... I think that most cars can do it at about that point given they have relative grip capabilities to go along with their speed / power potential...

It all boils down to the simple fact that if you ain't running up to or on to the outside curb... you are either going too slow... or apexing too late... and that's all you really need to know...

BTW, that works at most corners, at least for me... and especially in a 'momentum' car...

One thing for sure... when you do get it right at T10 and can repeat it without scaring yourself every time... you'll have one helluva good feeling... ;) Even then there'll be times when you're about at the apex that you'll still have this sinking feeling in yer gut that says there ain't no way in hell you're gonna make it... ;)

Steve 'Early Apex' Coleman

PS: Now watch me turn 'er over there first thing Sat. morning at the Audi PCC DE coming up in a Nov.... ;)

First I knew anybody ever noticed... ;)

Steve 'Turn Ten' Coleman

PS: See previous post... ;)

Glad you are not my instructor. My instructor at the PCA event a few weeks back, spent a lot time going over turn 10 with me (I can can expound on why ). His approach is to leave about 3-4 feet of cushion on exit.

Since there is nothing to "leave on the table" in an HPDE, I liked his approach.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

I agree with Jim. At our experience level (I have 18 events) there's more to lose than gain by leaving no cushion in T10. There's also a difference between "tracking out" and "sliding out" IMO. If I were on race rubber I'd push it harder and track further out. However on street tires, the extent of my 4-wheel drift in T10 isn't totally predictable, at least not yet.

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

An interesting posting. Even in my little honda I have to do more then brush the brakes for turn 10 (assuming we are talking full course here). I will NEVER try to go through without braking. Perhaps it can be done; I'll watch from the south course pits!

I find the secret, if you want to call it that, for turn 10 is to do what we tell you NEVER to do.That is turn in what seems a bit early. Be aLL OVER the start of the left side curbing and stay up on it until the real apex. You might even put a wheel in the dirt before the start of the curbing. Make sure its the front left! Hold that steering and it will bring you all the way to the right edge of the pavement. I've been half way up the curbing at the exit and can tell you that's as much as I want to use.

Now if you find yourself exiting turn 10 without being full track indeed there is more speed there that you can take advantage of...eventually.

Other than being a blind, uphill turn with an exit that disapears into the sky its really just a gentle left turn! Get it right and you'll be smiling so much you'll miss your braking point for Oak Tree.

Without a doubt turn 10 is one of my all time favorite turns! It rates right up there with the old turn 11 before they filled in half the dip at Road Atlanta

Ron

If you are doing T 10 (South Bend) at 100% every lap, you are either incredibly good, crazy, or fooling yourself.

I like to think I am pretty quick, and I have nailed South Bend perfect, 100%, exactly once, on the last lap of a race. IF I ever do that again, it will CERTAINLY not be at a driving school.

Putting a wheel off at trackout there will almost certainly spin you back across track to the left at a large rate of speed. The tire wall on the left looks like it is a long way away, but at an exit speed of around 105 or so, it comes up really quickly. I have seen several cars ended there.

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Bowie
President, Conover Motor Sports
http://www.raceconover.com

So boo hee, you're saying that if you're following Steve "they call me flat foot" Coleman up the esses to watch out for flags at the top of the hill?

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

So Bowie you're saying you're not that good at a driver's school right?

Ron

I have absolutely NO disagreement with that, and in fact encourage my students to determine the point at which their comfort level is reached. Then to make that point on the track (say 3-4 feet at T10) their 'virtual' edge of the pavement, using it to determine if they're being consistent. Same thing with distance to edge on entry, or distance to edge in mid turns such as T1-2 at RR or The Fish Hook at The Rock.

My comments were to reinforce the belief some have as to what can be done there, but just haven't had the need or desire to find out... and to the advanced folks who are ready to 'leave little or nothing on the table'... I presumed that would be understood without a disclaimer. Next time I'll try to 'rate' my advice as to the appropriate category of driver it's directed at.... ;)

Steve 'who'd never try to get anyone to go over they heads' Coleman

PS: Children... do NOT try this at home! It has been performed by, and is intended for, experienced 'professionals' only.

Har de Har there old man. I'm not that good at a driver's school, but good enough to beat you!

I just think South Bend is too high-risk of a corner, with too little reward for that last little bit of speed (fairly short straight afterward) to flirt with the very edge there with nothing on the line.

That, and when I did it just right it really felt like a controlled crash and not the kind of thing that could be repeated consistently. Top the uphill esses in 5th, tap the brakes for about as long as it took to get down to 4th, floor it and turn. If I add just a touch more braking I am much more controlled and only lose a couple mph on the exit.

Plus, you know I am not advocating tiptoeing through there at 80 or something like that, just not playing Schumaker for no reason... that is what Hog Pen is for. (I got $5 for someone who can beat me through there in a similar car!)

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Bowie
President, Conover Motor Sports
http://www.raceconover.com

You are explaining to me because.......Oh, I know, its for the benefit of others. Yeah, I fully agree. In thinking back I think I may have tried going through there once with no brake but a BIG lift. I decided not to do THAT again......unless, as you point out, there is something on the line.

I recall following you through hogpen and indeed you were fast. Would be fun to do that again and see what the differences are. I've been sideways there a couple times and have decided.......I really don't like that!

Hope you and Sarah are doing well. Will we see both of you at The Rock? I've no official duties so can play as much as I want! If they put the curbing down I think turn 6 will be REALLY fun!!

R

Unfortunately no Rock for us.

That is 13 hour weekend at VIR! Man I can't wait for that one.

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Bowie
President, Conover Motor Sports
http://www.raceconover.com

We'll miss ya. Have fun at the enduro.

R