Lead / Follow

AdamBreakey · **Posted:** Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:22 am

Does the club allow for Lead Follow instruction? I am buying a track car, but the one I am about to pull the trigger on does not have room for a passenger seat that would be useable by an instructor.

thanks

adamb

Brad Mackey · **Posted:** Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:27 am

Adam:
Suggest you privately contact our Track Stewards, either Stacy K. or Mark V., to discuss your specific case.

Lead-follow is basically a solo session, with instructor input just before and after the session. It does not allow for traditional in-car dialog and instruction unless you could provide a VOX radio system. Your instructor would need to be comfortable with the arrangement.

Have you been signed off to Solo at previous events?

AdamBreakey · **Posted:** Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:34 am

I have been signed off with Car Guys to solo... but I haven't run with Tarheel as of yet.

At Car Guys the instructor would lead the student around the track for the first part of the run group, then they would switch positions and the instructor would follow the student, watching his line and inputs around the track. After the session there would be a debrief in the pits between the instructor and student. While not ideal, this setup does work fairly well. Of course, you wouldn't want to do this with a novice driver, but an experienced driver w/ a well prepared car should do ok.

I will contact the track stewards to discuss the situation.

BTW, the car does have a passenger seat... it just also has a very large roll bar going right across it making it impossible for anyone to sit in the seat. The car is an SSC prepped dedicated track car.

adamb

Marty Howard · **Posted:** Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:50 am

We do Allow for lead/Follow in Yellow groups and above. We do suggest an instructor who has a wireless headset for these situations.

Certain instructors actually prefer this way since they get a little queasy when they are passengers.

AdamBreakey · **Posted:** Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:05 am

ok - that makes sense.

Does Tarheel follow the same color group set up as Car Guys? I have been signed off for solo driving with Car Guys in their intermediate group. I have done several events with them and a few with BSR up at Summit Point.

So, for me to get into the 'yellow' group at Tarheel I need to do ... ... ? I am assuming there is a certain number of events that must be done to qualify, as well as an instructor signing off on my abilities and maturity level.

The difficult part being that my track car is likely to not have a passenger seat that is useable due to the safety equipment in the car. I will need to find another way (aside from using this new car) to get signed off and into the yellow group for some L/F instruction.

Marty Howard · **Posted:** Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:11 am

Our Yellow is Intermediate.

We evaluate each student based on experience and feed back from past instructors.

TomFreeman · **Posted:** Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:12 am

I assume the track car has a Petty bar that doesn't allow for a passenger seat. You may also want to consider having Chris Schimmel slightly rework the cage for you, and then you can drop in a passenger seat.

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:15 am

Not sure what will be done, but I think that the biggest difficulty you face is that you have no history with the THSCC program and there is no way for an instructor to be in the car to evaluate you. Based on what you have said, the easiest route would be to see if you can do one school in a car with a passenger seat before bringing out the new race car. That way you will have a record of direct instructor evaluation that can be used to determine if a lead follow is appropriate for your driving skill.

As has been said, email Mark. He may be able to get the Car Guys evaluations for you and make a determination from there.

Not to hijack totally, but I have only done lead-follow once as an instructor and I sucked. Waaaay too much of my brain was being used for my driving to be able to collect 1/10th of what I normally give to my students as feedback. I was useless as tits on a nun when I got back to the pits and the student asked me about understeer in a certain corner. I had no idea how to tell if it was the car or driver causing the problem, so couldn't even begin to address what he needed to do to fix it. Anyone got any tips in case I find myself called upon to do a lead-follow again?

AdamBreakey · **Posted:** Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:23 pm

Thanks for the feedback. I think I will give Chris a call and see what reworking the cage would entail. I don't want to have to pay for a new cage though. Hopefully he can rework it so it removes the Petty bar.

I most certainly want instruction as this will be the first FWD car I have driven on the track at any real speed. Going from a z06 to a slo-te-ge will be an adjustment that will take some input to get past.

I think reworking the cage is sounding more and more likely. Add to it another seat and harness... mo money mo money.

no one said racing was cheap

Maybe I could get the M3 out on the track w/ Tarheel down in Roebling and get signed off in that... then bring the slow-te-ge out the next event. hmmm.

adamb

TomFreeman · **Posted:** Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:25 pm

As a student that just got promoted to blue group w/ THSCC (thanks Mark V. and Stacy), in-car instruction is really important to my growth and success as a driver. I want that instructor in car with me for at least 4 sessions in a weekend, pushing me, critiquing me, and making me better. Solo time is important also, but I'm coming to an HPDE for instruction and track time.

AdamBreakey · **Posted:** Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:40 pm

TomFreeman wrote:

As a student that just got promoted to blue group w/ THSCC (thanks Mark V. and Stacy), in-car instruction is really important to my growth and success as a driver. I want that instructor in car with me for at least 4 sessions in a weekend, pushing me, critiquing me, and making me better. Solo time is important also, but I'm coming to an HPDE for instruction and track time.

I agree.. instruction is extremely valuable. I am just trying to get as much seat time this year as possible, and spending money on modifying my car to allow for an instructor to sit inside with me just takes away money that could go towards more track days.

I have 13 months to get ready for One Lap... so I will be a track whore this year - most of the time in my slo-te-ge, some time in the M3 One Lap car.

I just talked to the One Lap car owner and he said that the Roebling event might work out for bringing the M3 out. I am going to check schedules again and confirm... but I might be there in that car.

adamb

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:48 pm

AdamBreakey wrote:

I agree.. instruction is extremely valuable. I am just trying to get as much seat time this year as possible, and spending money on modifying my car to allow for an instructor to sit inside with me just takes away money that could go towards more track days.

adamb

Quality versus quantity. While it may be that I am poorer than most at lead-follow, the 1/10th feedback I gave before was not exageration. Just like in car video systems that have a split screen for car and driver, having someone be able to see what you are doing and at the same time what the car is doing is pretty valuable.

If you haven't already read it, you might want to consider getting this book as it has lots of good information on how to use data logging equipment for driving improvement, not just car tuning.

AdamBreakey · **Posted:** Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:56 pm

I completely agree. I have used the Lead Follow in the past -- but that was for my solo sign off run up at BSR. When we came back into the pits after the session, the instruction, while valuable, wasn't as insightful as the instruction I have had w/ an in car instructor.

As far as data logging goes... We used a DL-1 out in Walnut Ridge at the National events that just occured. We were using them for driver improvement and were able to find areas (even on an autocross course) where I was leaving time. Pretty cool stuff. BTW, the guy that let me use the DL-1 had that book with him.

adamb

Diane Hall · **Posted:** Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:37 pm

I had a lead-follow student in Feb. (For one session anyway.)

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:08 pm

Randy did L/F on his last session with Mazda Drivers ate VIR-N. The problem was his instructor was in a C4 and couldn't keep up to "follow". :lol:

FWIW, I agree with Rich in that I don't see how this method can really benefit a student.

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