For some reason I feel the need to respond to your post backwards... I really should also point out that my opinions and beliefs are not necessarily those of the Triangle Z Club, Tarheel Sports Car Club, or my colleagues
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Now I'll go put my flame retardent suit on and you can all have at it with my comments.
I don't think you'll get any flames here... this is why I even started this thread, to open the discussion from both sides
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As far as I'm concerned you're trying to solve a problem that is an extremely low percentage at best. Meanwhile there are much higher percentage accident issues facing DE participants and clubs that could be addressed.
I'm not trying to
solve a problem, I'm trying to reduce the chance, no matter how small that chance is. As an organizer, and an enthusiast, I see more and more people jumping into the sport. What I see happening is more people with less experience doing this. Lots of novice and beginner drivers aren't learning and experiencing track driving before modding their cars well beyond their means.
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Come up with some real statistics to make the point that this happens often and is an ongoing issue. I'll be surprised if you can even show 1% of all accidents at a DE around the country this year involved a severe head injury to anyone with a harness bar. We can do "What If" scenarios all day long.
I'd be very saddened if even 1% of accidents involved severe head injury. It shouldn't have to happen often to be a concern... it'll only take it happening once to put an end to your driving fun (or worse). As orgainzers, its our job to ask the what-ifs and plan and prepare for them. When it comes to OUR participant's safety, we'd much rather be pro-active than reactive.
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I don't hear anyone beating the drum about the 4-point Schroth(sp?) system that I see in a number of BMW and other cars. My instructor had one in his BMW 3-series. I spent more time pushing down on the damn lapbelt to stop it riding into my stomach than anything else. That thing is dangerous in any accident situation. Not just a rollover. Yet they pass tech just fine.
Then you haven't been hearing our drums. 4-point systems (Schroth or otherwise)
DO NOT PASS TZC/THSCC tech for that very reason you state.
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I've heard the arguments and will continue to use the harness bar system and accept the risk for a situation that I feel is very low percentage. The factory 3-point system is still completely functional and available to any passenger. The 5-point with harness is also there on the passenger side.
Oh you're
really not gonna like this one: If your passenger refuses to wear the harness without a roll bar (i.e. your instructor) then you cannot wear it either at TZC/THSCC events. The same applies for instructors giving students rides (students
cannot give rides to non-instructors). At our events driver and passenger must be harnessed/seated equally.
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It's not about putting it in because I can go faster. I can drive better because I can keep myself planted in the seat so that I'm using the steering wheel for steering. Not hanging on to it to brace myself. That pays benefits in every turn in every session. It's G-forces it helps with.
If someone is instructor level or very advanced, then our hope is that experience will guide them in and out of situations where roll-over protection is a non-issue... we can accept those drivers accepting that risk; what we're mainly concerned with here is the driver without the experience in accident avoidance and situational awareness... stuff like harnesses and r-compound tires give them not only a false sense of security, but it also masks so many problems and bad habits that when that threshold is crossed (either by speed or mistake) the consequences can be disasterous.
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Well I guess I'll just totally disagree with you on almost every point. No it is not an eye opener. It is a given that using a harness bar w/5-6 points exposes your head IF you rollover and IF the roof collapses. IF many conditions come together it becomes an issue. But it is an extremely low percentage at best. I'll keep my harness bar and harness over the stock setup any day.
Adding a rollbar is intrusive for a street driven car and does require some tearing up of the interior and cutting. Some people don't want to do that and see the harness bar as an acceptable risk. A 4 point rollbar protects the B pillar but a 6 point would protect the A and C pillar. Some cars can be just as dangerous if the front of the roof collapses.
Of course its intrusive, and depending on your local inspection station, very possibly non street-legal. But if you're getting deep enough into this sport, you absolutely MUST accept the fact the the risk of a serious accident becomes
when NOT
if and thus must prepare your car accordingly. Thinking it won't happen to you because the percentages are too low is naive in my humble opinion.
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If you're going to show pictures like that then let's add some details on safety that caused this accident that you left out. You mentioned driver skill and running in the wrong group. Yes that happened and I agree on that. To me the bigger safety issue at the Streets of Willow Springs is the runoff area anywhere around the track. It has dirt run offs, but for some reason they never maintain it. Rain ruts, holes, dips and jumps are common on the edge of the track. Rollover issues there just continue to increase. That C6 did not just do a small rollover either. A lower speed rollover would have put a dent in the B pillar, not crushed it. That car jumped, then did a cartwheel end over end and then roll. Any car can be pummeled in if you can flip it enough times. That example is an extreme case. The driver is lucky he didn't get killed or badly hurt. Rollbar, harness bar or not.
You are absolutely right. That's why I mentioned the high-speed nature of this roll-over. Low-speed roll-overs, in most solid-roof cars, would probably still not require a roll-bar. But you can't know when its gonna happen, or under what circumstances, so you must prepare for the worst. As far as the facilities, yes if any of the tracks we use got like that, we would not be going back to that track until the issue was resolved. Case in point is CMP. The row of trees along the pit straight collected one of our instructors during one of our time trials from the back side (track right from turn 11). Had he not been a C5 with factory side-impact beams in the doors, the outcome would have been much, much worse that just a bent car. We told CMP they had to install a tire wall or we would not come back, and they did, and it probably saved another member from having to use a body shop instead of some rubbing compound the next year.
Will you drive at Willow Springs without a roll bar after seeing that? If so, what will you do to protect yourself from getting in a situation where those ruts become a factor? Same applies to tracks with close walls... will you drop down to 7 or 8/10ths through sections with little or no room for error? Or will you go balls out because you're strapped in and confident?
There have been no less than three deaths this year during club events. Two were non-race situations, the other was during an amature club race. Safety MUST be at the forefront of our sport/hobby or we will lose it... especially for a small club like our. One catastrophic incident would more than likely do us in.
Please don't take this personally, but there are plenty of clubs, local and national, that don't care what you do in your car, as long as they make their bottom line and you've signed the insurance waiver. They aren't thinking about the future of the sport, or their members. There are more and more popping up everyday too. Its up to you whether you want to run with a group thats adamant about safety, or a group that leaves safety up to the particpants.
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) Most of what we do is cost prohibitive, its the nature of the beast... but its worth it. Whats it's NOT worth is risking everything because we're trying to get that speed fix with improper equipment. IMHO and experience a person can go out and have all the fun they can handle without going through six sets of tires and brake pads in a year because they are constantly driving on the very edge or pushing their car unecessarily.
