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Ok so all 3 of you feel pretty much the same about my comments regarding Rockingham. So I'll respond to all 3 at once.

Yeah those walls aren't going to move. There aren't even Safer Barriers from what I understand of it. So the place I feel comfortable going, is not going there...

Roebling is flat. Provides a nice straight. Has 2 double apex turns. 2 long sweepers with 1 being off camber. So you can learn good basic skills. Has reasonable runoff in many areas. Only wall you can hit is if you seriously screw up and fight the car if you go off coming out of turn 9. It makes a good training course for new drivers. So a novice driver makes a small mistake. Higher probability they will have an off into grass/dirt/sand. Kick some dirt up, bruise their ego, and send them a wake up call that they need to slow down.

And you think Rockingham compares to that and is just as safe. Same novice makes a mistake anywhere in the bank, not just the turn but the straight also. High probability to visit a concrete wall. Crunch up car and possibly occupants. Yeah that will be a wake up call too. It;s just going to hurt a lot more.

VIR has elevation changes and blind corners so it increases risk over a flat track with no blind corners.

Road Atlanta or Watkins Glenn take a bigger risk than ones at CMP or RR. Tougher course to navigate and learn. More areas with less runoff or Armco to hit.

Point is that there is a different level of risk at different tracks. And Rockingham escalates it due to the bank and concrete walls.

Every track has risk. But some more than others. It is not the same for every track.

You're fine with taking that elevated risk from one track to another and that is ok, but me taking the risk with the harness bar is not. At least I admit that I'm taking the risk and understand it won't protect me in a rollover.

Graham

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http://www.greywinds.com

The 4 point one I was strapped into was DOT approved and it doesn't work. It's the popular one that the BMW guys like to use. The shoulder harnesses go to a tether behind the seat. Regardless of the brand it does just what I expected. With any G-force under braking the tether pulls the shoulder belts up and then the lap belts up. And puts the lap belts right in your stomach. But it's a safe bet on a frontal impact it will tear into your stomach. There is no guarantee in a rollover that this will not hold your body upright either based on how much stress is on the tether.




Actually that is not very clear at all. If you have a harness bar then the shoulder belts are anchored to it. Wrapped around it actually. That's what a harness bar is. Mine wrap around it and lock through standard belt loop/cinch just like every belt does. But the harness bar is taking the load of the shoulder belts. And it is mounted to the same location the 3-point factory system is. That is how harness bars work.

So at best that explanation is confusing. At worst it just says no harness bars in a round about face way.


Graham

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http://www.greywinds.com

Actually Graham Harrness Bars are not there to mount harness to, they are there to get them to the correct hieght and aligment. Sorry to say you and many many other are using them incorrectly if you have your harness mounted directly to the bar.

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

Graham... I agree with you on this point. However I'm not sure at applies specifically to the point of this thread... definately a good topic for a thread of its own though



This hopefully will make clear the difference as I see it (making percentages up to make a point):

Most of us will agree that 99.99999999997% of off-track excursions will most likely not end with a roll-over, especially one high-speed and airborn like the example I used. So the cost of 99.99999999997% of off-track excursions will be in the currency of pride and/or the bank account.

Its that one-in-a-millionth I'm concerned about. The one where all the little things go wrong. The one that slips through the cracks in the probability sidewalk.

I hope this thread has raised awareness of the issue... and there are many others. It's certainly made me think about it and about other issues.

I did not make it to Rockingham this year. I have driven Lowes and had a great time. Blueridge PCA has been running at Lowes for years. I did find the banking somewhat intimidating. I was not so concerned about making a mistake in the banking, but the thought of something breaking on the car at 135 mph in the 30 deg. banking crossed my mind about every time I drove through Nascar 3 and 4..

I spoke with my instructor and the chief instructor. Both told me that for as long as Blueridge has been running Lowes, no one has ever lost control in the banking. I did see a 240Z sustain severe damage as a result of getting things crossed up while entering the unfield section of the track. The car backed hard into a concrete barrier, but it occured no where near a banked section of the track.

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Dave Phillips
78 Porsche 911 SC

Until you have DROVE it, you cant make the jump that Rockingham is UNSAFE. I thought it was more unsafe before the school, when I drove it there are still areas to get in trouble but its pretty safe. I had 3 offs and never came close to hitting a thing.

I still look forward to you giving me a point by at VIR-F this year (shut up and let me dream)

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Come on, jump off this cliff. Until you do, you won't know whether the bottom hurts or not.

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In need of car.

Actually David you are confusing a roll bar that has an integrated harness bar with a harness bar that Stacy started this thread about.

A rollbar has the hoop and diaganol bar to protect from rollover. Then it has the harness bar integrated. That bar sets the height and angle for the shoulder harnesses. It also does deal with the forces exerted by you on the harnesses.

A harness bas is a single bar. Mounted to the B-pillar mount points that the factory 3-point shoulder belt mounts to. It also has 2 bars running down from it attached to the back of the seat. That stops it from twisting and moving. Similar to how the back 2 posts of a roll bar stop it from moving forward or backward. The harnesses mount to it for height/angle alignment and it takes all the stresses. Those stresses are disperssed through the B-pillar instead of the hoop in a rollbar.

That is how a harness bar I'm using works.

Graham

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http://www.greywinds.com

Yeah I wasn't trying to derail this thread. In my first post I tried to be tactful and made the statement about larger safety concerns. That was directed at Rockingham. When you opened the door with your comment about CMP I just walked right in. The point I wanted to make was we all accept risks doing this. Some/many of you beleive I'm taking a horrible risk way worse than you running at Rockingham. I just totally disagree with that thinking. I just felt the need to share the enlightenment back... Risk vs. reward. I stand by my descision to use a harness bar but not run at Rockingham.




Hmmm, other than using a sensationalist picture I'm not sure about this either. Sounds like I'm the only club member using a harness bar who gets on this forum. And I already knew long before you posted this what the difference between a rollbar and harness bar is.

Want to affect a larger audience for enlightenment. Since the Brey-Krause unit is popular and fits a number of cars. Post it on the Corvette, Porsche and BMW forums.


Disclaimer

Now with all that aside. This was a debate topic for me. Just so we are clear. I will abide the Tarheels tech inspection whether I agree or not. If tech and/or an instructor absolutely insist that I not use it then I won't without argument. I'll strap on my factory 3-point and go learn and have fun. And try my absolute best not to hurt/embarass you, the club, or my instructor. I do care about my instructors safety. And show it in the way I behave on track and have a report card from my first two events to prove it. References are a good thing. Once we get to the track all debates are done, period.

Graham[/b]

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http://www.greywinds.com

No I actually I am not. I know exactly what kind of bar you are talking about, and generally it is there to guide your harness when they are bolted to the floor , attached to your rear seat belt mounting point or if the roll bar you have does not have a harness guide bar, a lot of auto-x will put these bars in many cars so they can attach they can mount harness's to, but IMHO that is incorrect, but for auto-x it's not a big deal, however as I have said, I would not use such a system on track for various reason.

For a few e-mails I have seen from NASA-Mid Atlantic, they are seriously considering banning this type of setup completely, to the point where they may not let you out on track unless you take the harness's out as there is too much temptation to use them if they are there. The problem is it might be your choice to use them, but say the .00001 % chance of rollover happens, and you get injured badly or worse, your relatives may take a dim view of NASA letting you out on track with a setup that is less than safe setup, and then litigation begins....

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

Mine does not attach as you describe. The R-D Racing and Brey-Krause units work as I described. The lap belts and sub belt mount to the seat frame and anchor points. The shoulder harnesses mount to the bar only. And yes I agree with you for auto-x it is not a big deal. But the same issue still applies regarding roll over.




That and ANY incident is already covered. NASA-SE and PCA do not use annual tech. So you get a mechanic to tech your car and then YOU signoff it is ready to go on track. Then upon entering the gate YOU signoff a waiver that covers anything that happens from the moment you get there until you leave. Your relatives may be upset but they have no legal leg to stand on since YOU waived all that. Otherwise clubs would have law suits happening all the time. After all, we live in a sue-happy country, so the waivers are there to cover that.

Graham

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http://www.greywinds.com

This is completely off topic, but a good laywer can negate the signing of a wavier IMHO. If the sharks smell the $$ they will get it from the fattest stack.

All completely off topic and completely IMHO.

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Absolutely. Depending on the circumstances of the situation, that waiver can turn out to be worth less than the paper it is on. Organizers of events like these should probably consider a personal umbrella liability policy that is verified in writing from the underwriter to cover any and all liability resulting from being involved in organizing a track event (at least that is what I would do in that position ).

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

A quick comment in reply to Graham's comment about The Rock. Graham, at our first event at The Rock we had the fewest incidents for any track event that I can recall. Something like 10 including blowing the braking zone for the infield turn.

Myself, I credit this to the fact that students, and instructors, see those immovable concrete walls and realize that if they hit them the walls will win! Every time! So they dial it back a bit.

Yes, we had 1 person hit the wall in the banking this last time and another get caught up in an accordian braking affect incident for turn 3. Stuff happens regardless of what surrounds the track.

I don't feel The Rock is any more or any less dangerous than any other track. But it does DEMAND respect....as should every other track. I'd also say, as I have said for Watkins Glen, its perhaps NOT a track for a newbie to this sport. RR has more friendly run off and is well suited to someone new to this.

Respectfully,

Ron