Close call at VIR Mazda event

David Teague · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:48 pm

Quote:

http://jeffsweb.net/viperattack.php
This was from a Mazda event at VIR

WOW!

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:50 pm

Wow? I think my reaction is more how?

David Teague · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:52 pm

Rich Anderson wrote:

Wow? I think my reaction is more how?

Drooped 2 wheels off on the other side?

Locked Rear Wheels under braking or downshifting??

Chris Overcash · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:00 pm

Yikes!

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:22 pm

I agree with the in car commentary!

HOLY ****

Charlie Guthrie · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:14 pm **Posts:** 832

I'm going out on a limb and make a guess as to what happened. Note the track just before this happened. The film car has just passed start/finish. Look at the film and notice the hump in the track by the big tree. At 120 MPH that bump is a non event.
I had a Viper student running that part of the track around 140 MPH and still it was not a big deal. When he asked if he could "open it up" coming out of Hog Pen I thought, "what the heck, it's mostly a straight away." Big mistake! after 160 MPH, that hump in the track becomes a launch ramp. Worse yet, the car is in a turn. After the car settled, and we picked the seat bottom upholstery from our teeth, we decided to limit the speed to 140 max.
I'm going to bet that the car doing the "exit stage left" got out of control due to max speed over the hump.
Note where the driver is looking as he passes in front of the oncoming vehicle.
Charlie G

Kevin Butler · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:14 pm

I don't think there's much doubt that the dog leg on the front straight contributed to what happened.

Some of the TT mailing list emails suggest a rapid closing speed and a "whip around" kind of pass that didn't contain smooth input. A rather quick turn to the right (as in trying not to hit a car) could make the tail of the car go left. Possibly what was recorded was his overcounter to the left, taking him across the path of the BMW.

Do you think that HPDE speed limits could be imposed as a result of this event and the recent California Carrerra GT incident? For me personally, right know wouldn't matter 'cause I'm driving a Miata. However, if I got a much faster car in the future, speed limits would kinda suck. They would really suck for folks who currently have high HP cars and are capable of driving them competently at higher speeds.

KB

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:14 am

Kevin Butler wrote:

Do you think that HPDE speed limits could be imposed as a result of this event and the recent California Carrerra GT incident? For me personally, right know wouldn't matter 'cause I'm driving a Miata. However, if I got a much faster car in the future, speed limits would kinda suck. They would really suck for folks who currently have high HP cars and are capable of driving them competently at higher speeds.

KB

I believe that the Windy City Chapter BMW CCA has enforced speed limits through the kink at Road America. The corner was claiming, on average, over a car a day according to my friend who has run with them.

In general, I don't think speed limits are necessary. I have instructed a mostly stock 1.6 Miata that almost loses speed up the back straight at VIR and a 550 hp supercharged Bullit Mustang that would do over 140 at the start finish line of Roebling Road. 99% of the safety of both was determined by the driver. A speed limit will do nothing to the driver except be a distraction.

clinehall · **Posted:** Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:41 am

Maybe I will concentrate on golf

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:26 pm

From another forum

Quote:

Just a quick heads up, that was my dad in a '90 E30 M3, he had given the viper a wave by, the viper had gone offline and realized he was way offline for the turn. Viper tried to quickly get back onto the "proper" line for the turn rather than just slowing further and taking a less ideal line, the guy lifted, got on the brakes, and it went as you see there.

Bonehead move with a 650 hp (modded) car.

FWIW.

David Spratte · **Posted:** Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:16 pm

Rich Anderson wrote:

From another forum

Quote:

Just a quick heads up, that was my dad in a '90 E30 M3, he had given the viper a wave by, the viper had gone offline and realized he was way offline for the turn. Viper tried to quickly get back onto the "proper" line for the turn rather than just slowing further and taking a less ideal line, the guy lifted, got on the brakes, and it went as you see there.

Bonehead move with a 650 hp (modded) car.

FWIW.

Wonder if the Viper driver offered to have his dad's upholstery steam cleaned.

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:47 pm

It's these kind of stories that make me glad that Mark does an excellent job with the pairings. He knows I don't like doing in-car instruction in high horsepower cars and as far as I can remember, the fastest thing I've ever ridden around in is an E46 M3 whose owner wouldn't turn off the traction control. Mark, if you're reading this, thanks.

Mark Vitacco · **Posted:** Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:15 am

My first thought was a problem at the kink (and "hump" leading up to it)
but I talked to Jene at VIR. According to Jene it was simply a case of a poorly exceuted pass by jerking the sterring wheel right, then left, and setting up a pendelum effect.

In other words "fast hand syndrome" Norbel Watts was the instructor
and verified same.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:06 am

Mark Vitacco wrote:

According to Jene it was simply a case of a poorly exceuted pass by jerking the sterring wheel right, then left, and setting up a pendelum effect.

Was the student a total newbie? This is stuff you learn *not* to do when you're 16 years old in Driver's Ed. Add in a race track and a high HP car, and you get a dangerous situation.

Mark Vitacco · **Posted:** Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:17 pm

I talked to Norbet Watts the instructor in the Viper. Norbet told me
as soon as his student got the point he "nailed" the throttle and Jerked
the wheel. Before Norbet was able to get his mouth open, the car
already rotated and was heading off track. Norbet said it was the longest slide he had ever been in without hitting anyting.

Speed limits are something negotiated between the
instructor and student. I can give you examples where they have
been negotiated btween instructor and instructor.

We will continue to rely on the good judement of our instructors and students before imposing draconian mesaures. I think speed limits would be an over-reaction to a lack of standards and organization issue that we don't seem to have on the east coast as well as a somewhat calivear, or careless cluture (i.e. Fast & Furious) that we don't have in our club.

This is not to say we can't have a serious
shunt with injury or worse at a THSCC/TZC run event, but we can never
prevent someone from doing something increadably stupid-as seen in the vido in question.

Stacy was drafting an 'official statment' from the track team that will
be out before our next event.

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Close call at VIR Mazda event

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