So how does one ever get within all the rules?

ChuckKnight · **Joined:** Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:21 pm **Posts:** 31

So how does one ever get within all the rules?

I have been attempting to make my car (2004 Miata MSM) and my son's car (2002 Miata SE) track worthy for HPDE.

It seems we are doomed to AutoX forever.

I doubt we will pass the inspection.
If you look at the Tech_GuideV1.0_PDF.pdf doc that I sent you:

5.1.4 Both driver and passenger must use the same safety equipment.
So we cannot use the Momo seats that each of us have for driver?

5.1.6 Rollbar measeurements.
Stock seats are higher so I doubt this will pass.

5.2 Says ythe M95 helmet is required this year. SA2000 next year.
New helmets to purchase.

5.3.6 Rollbar padding.
I have a HDHC with the padding but my son does not have it on his double hoop.

Then there is the harness thing.
I just installed new Simpson belts in my car, but I fail to see how in the world I would get the sub belt behind the back plane. It just is not long enough. I now have it bolted through the floor with the Simpson mounting bolts and fender washers.

On my son's car, I installed a new Simpson for the driver just as mine, and moved his Willens to the passenger side. According to 5.1.4 they have to be the same?

He and I both would like to attend driver schools but how is it safer to return to stock seats and belts just to meet these rules?

Adam Ligon · **Posted:** Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:08 pm

As far as the seats go you must have equal protection for both occupants. That is if there is a racing seat for the driver the pass needs one to, doesn't have to be the same one but does have to be a racing seat.

Same goes with belts, if driver has 5pts pass must have 5pts. Again not same brand but must be in date belts

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:52 pm

ChuckKnight wrote:

5.1.6 Rollbar measeurements.
Stock seats are higher so I doubt this will pass.

If your rollbar does not meet the high requirement (or allow your seats to) then you should contact the manufacturer and demand a refund. It does not meet the SCCA SOLO 1 standard, so unless you order a 'style' bar or 'street' bar, you did not get what you ordered. If you have a 'street' or 'style' bar, well.....

ChuckKnight wrote:

He and I both would like to attend driver schools but how is it safer to return to stock seats and belts just to meet these rules?

Because as a student it is not just your safety that you (or the club) is concerned about. The ballast that you are forced to carry in your passenger seat, despite what their instructions or driving might lead you to believe, is not indestructable. If you are aware that your car is without certain safety equipment, you are more likely to drive accordingly. If you are strapped in a full race seat, you may feel more secure, while your instructor is flopping with no help.

Adam Ligon · **Posted:** Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:39 pm

Rich Anderson wrote:

ChuckKnight wrote:

5.1.6 Rollbar measeurements.
Stock seats are higher so I doubt this will pass.

If your rollbar does not meet the high requirement (or allow your seats to) then you should contact the manufacturer and demand a refund. It does not meet the SCCA SOLO 1 standard, so unless you order a 'style' bar or 'street' bar, you did not get what you ordered. If you have a 'street' or 'style' bar, well.....
.

Every miata owner I know has had to take padding out of the stock seats to meet the height issues. And that is with every brand of roll bar out there.

That is, it is not a rollbar defect, but the constriants of fitting said rollbar under the top.

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:56 pm

Adam Ligon wrote:

That is, it is not a rollbar defect, but the constriants of fitting said rollbar under the top.

I very much doubt that the rule makers or my head give a crap about whether or not the top fits. If a bar is advertised as being a legal race bar and it isn't, then you should get your money back, IMO.

ChuckKnight · **Joined:** Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:21 pm **Posts:** 31

"The M2 Hard Core Bar is designed for the serious SCCA Solo I competitor that wants to maintain a dual purpose car for street and racing use. Hard Core Hardtop and M1 Hard Core versions available.

Compatible with the 1999 and newer Mazda glass rear window or equivalent size aftermarket only.*

Single main hoop diagonal brace and harness tabs standard. Double diagonals optional for strength and better rear vision."

http://www.bethania-garage.com/m2_hardcore.htm

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:58 pm

Well, you may want to look through Appendix J of this, make sure that THSCC rules 100% jive with what is written (and perhaps also in the GCR) and then talk to the folks at Bethania. Perhaps they can enlighten you as to how their bar passes. If they tell you that you have to modify your seat or be shorter than a certain height, you might want to suggest that along with posting a refund check to you, they should post that on their website.

ChuckKnight · **Joined:** Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:21 pm **Posts:** 31

Looks like two less payers to the THSCC HPDEs

Diane Hall · **Posted:** Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:06 pm

The bar itself is built to be SOLO II legal. The buyer must be sure they meet the clearance rules. Buy a seat from the junk yard. Cut several inches of padding out of the seat bottom. Like magic, you will pass the broomstick test. Remember as well that you might get a tall instructor, and do the padding removal on the passenger side too.

"Same equipment for instructor and student". This is the rule. Sometimes it comes down to whether the instructor will get in the car with you or not with what you provide him/her for safety equipment. We all have the right to refuse to ride with someone. Think about it. We put our lives, quite literally, in your hands. Doesn't it only make sense that the rules require you to provide the same safety for us that you provide for yourself? That said, a harness is a harness, just so they are both more than 4 points. A seat is a seat, just so they are from the same seat type.

Helmet. When the SA95 (and M95) helmets expire, we all have to buy new helmets. That's how it works. They're good for 10 years (or until the 2005 models come out since that sometimes takes a little longer than 10 years). If you got a screaming deal on your M95 helmet last year (or 2 years ago) there's the reason.

High density padding. Easy to solve... http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store.php? ... 97fd32#665 Here's just one online link. I'm sure if you look around a bit, you can get it cheaper than $17. I think I finally found some for like $14. If you see it for $3, that's the old stuff and not what you want.

If you think this is tough as far as rules, never try club racing.

Good luck getting it together in time for VIR. See you there. Drop by the yellow SM car if you or your son wants a ride.

Diane

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:09 pm

ChuckKnight wrote:

Looks like two less payers to the THSCC HPDEs

That is a shame and certainly not the conclusion that anyone involved in wants the rules to cause. It is much harder to get a convertible legal, especially one that is as 'space challenged' as a Miata, but they are, in most cases, far less safe in stock condition than a regualr tin-top so more work should be required. There are clubs that do not allow convertibles at all for some of these very reasons.

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:14 pm

Diane Hall wrote:

The bar itself is built to be SOLO II legal. The buyer must be sure they meet the clearance rules. Buy a seat from the junk yard. Cut several inches of padding out of the seat bottom. Diane

This seems like some really critical information that perhaps should have been published ahead of time. When you advertise a bar as working for a dual purpose car, I think that very few people would imagine that it would require the removal of large amounts of seat padding to be legal.

The cynic in me thinks this is like saying "the bar is legal but you have to make sure that it is really legal." I know that is not how it is, but if you sell to someone new to this sort of stuff, it could easily be taken that way.

Diane Hall · **Posted:** Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:16 pm

Rich Anderson wrote:

ChuckKnight wrote:

Looks like two less payers to the THSCC HPDEs

That is a shame and certainly not the conclusion that anyone involved in wants the rules to cause. It is much harder to get a convertible legal, especially one that is as 'space challenged' as a Miata, but they are, in most cases, far less safe in stock condition than a regualr tin-top so more work should be required. There are clubs that do not allow convertibles at all for some of these very reasons.

Rich, you just told him his bar can't possibly pass and he should demand a refund. Given the number of Miatas out there using a Hard Dog bar, I think that's bullsh*t. It would also tend to make him think he has a problem he can't surmount by Feb 12th. Again, not the case.

Chuck, don't give up if you really want to be at VIR-F (and who wouldn't want to be there). Hit me up if you want verbal help. I'm a bit far for physical help. r2x@mindspring.com

Diane Hall · **Posted:** Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:20 pm

Rich Anderson wrote:

This seems like some really critical information that perhaps should have been published ahead of time. When you advertise a bar as working for a dual purpose car, I think that very few people would imagine that it would require the removal of large amounts of seat padding to be legal.

The cynic in me thinks this is like saying "the bar is legal but you have to make sure that it is really legal." I know that is not how it is, but if you sell to someone new to this sort of stuff, it could easily be taken that way.

Though given that any Miata driver is very aware of how close their head is to the top of the car (unless they are less than 5' tall), one might assume they can figure out that if they want to clear a rollbar (ANY rollbar) they will need to drop their seat height to do so. You can be all high and mighty about protecting the innocent, but at some point you have to assume people have some sense. It's not a major issue. Honestly.

Marvin McBride · **Posted:** Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:22 pm

I've been thru something similar with Hard Dog. Their contention is that the roll bars meet the GCR specs for roll bars, which they do. They don't necessarily meet the height requirements, because that depends on the torso length of the driver. My issue with them was that the tab on the roll bar where you install a single eye bolt to which you attach both shoulder harnesses was not Solo I compliant - you need to have separate attachment points for each shoulder harness. They said that was a shoulder harness issue, not a roll bar issue, and refused to take responsibility. Some of their roll bars do have a harness bar which allows you to meet Solo I regs as far as mounting the shoulder harness, but they make the Solo I claim whether or not the harness bar is part of the roll bar.

That being said, plenty of folks track their Miatas and love it. We can usually find an instructor short enough to fit beneath a Miata roll bar with a stock seat - even it it means moving the seat forward and reclining the back.

I would talk to Mark Vitacco about the seats. I see plenty of cars on track with a race seat for the driver and a stock seat for the passenger. Now that you mention it, that shouldn't be legal, but maybe there is some wiggle room here. Worse comes to worse, changing the seats is just 4 bolts. If you are new to the track, how about putting the stock driver's seats back in and using the stock belts? Or putting 2 racing seats in one car and 2 stock seats in the other car?

As far as the harnesses, as long as both passenger and driver have either stock belts or 5-pt harnesses, that's the same level of protection - they don't have to be the same brand, color, latch type, etc.

Can't help with the helmet - we all have to meet that requirement.

Don't give up without talking to Mark and researching the alternatives. You'll have missed the biggest bug-eating grin of your life if you do.

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:24 pm

Diane Hall wrote:

Rich, you just told him his bar can't possibly pass and he should demand a refund. Given the number of Miatas out there using a Hard Dog bar, I think that's bullsh*t. It would also tend to make him think he has a problem he can't surmount by Feb 12th. Again, not the case.

If you read what I wrote, that is not what I said. What I said is threefold:

1) That if the bar is advertised as legal and is not, he should get a refund.
2) If the bar requires other modifications to be legal that should be stated ahead of time.
3) That he should check all the rules and contact Bethania directly for suggestions.

Notice, I never said that he cannot pass inspection.

Also, I am not sure if the rules were worded the same way last year, so the cars that have been legal might not be now.

I agree you should try and work through this and get out there. Since there are more than just a couple of members that have Miatas that see track time, you will most likely find that the problem, as Diane suggests, is far from insurmountable.

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