Shave RA1s for 3200lb Porsche 944 Turbo?

Mark Grabski · **Joined:** Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:33 pm **Posts:** 40

Hi All,
I'm going with Toyo RA1s this next DE/TT season and would like some opinions on whether or not to shave the tires. There seems to be varying opinions on this. I'm more interested in durability over speed. I originally assumed that they would last longer with deeper tread but there have been some very good arguments on why they last longer shaved (mainly heat related, tread blocks). Anybody run both shaved and not shaved?

Thanks,
Mark

Patrice Bousquet · **Posted:** Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:01 pm

With the Toyo RA1 on your car i will have them shaved for dry weather.
For the reason that you are mentioning.
I got a set of them full tread that i keep only for wet weather and street driving on the Porsche. For the dry what i got at the moment is the Avon Tech R and so far the longevity seem pretty good.

Patrice

Diane Hall · **Posted:** Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:20 pm

I've always run them full depth on my Miatas. I've been convinced by the Flatout Motorsports guys (www.flatout-motorsports.com) to have my next race set shaved (unless I want pure rain tires).

However, I'm not sure what I'd do if I was only doing HPDE. With the Miata, I ran about 40 days on a full-depth set. Can't ask for more than that.

With the races though, I'm giving up too much on the heat and tread squirm, and I'm not running 15 weekend seasons anymore, so I can afford to replace tires more often (relative to track days used).

Sorry I don't have a better answer.

Mark Grabski · **Joined:** Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:33 pm **Posts:** 40

Further info on my setup ...
Porsche 944 Turbo
2 sets of rims (7 inch front, 8 inch rear)
Tire trailer (no tow vehicle)

I'm planning on running 245/45-R16 RA1s on the 8 inch rims all around for the track. More rubber on the ground and the ability to rotate front to back.

I plan on using the 7 inch rims for the street. I was going to get some cheap max or ultra high performance street tires (probably Kumho MX since I already have 2 in decent shape) for the 7 inch rims.

I could go full tread on the RA1s and use them wet and dry until they wear or I could get them shaved and use the streets when it rains. It doesn't sound too appealing to change wheels in the rain though.

My concern is that full tread is fine for lower horsepower lighter cars in the dry but may not be OK for heavier higher HP cars.

Thanks,
Mark

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:41 pm

Mark Grabski wrote:

Porsche 944 Turbo

(snip...)

I could go full tread on the RA1s and use them wet and dry until they wear or I could get them shaved and use the streets when it rains. It doesn't sound too appealing to change wheels in the rain though.

My concern is that full tread is fine for lower horsepower lighter cars in the dry but may not be OK for heavier higher HP cars.

Couple things come to mind.

1. Shaved Toyos are a fine rain tire. They're not the *best* rain tire but they do work.

2. I would think that with a heavy, high horsepower car, shaved toyos would be *better* in the dry. Less squirming around of those tread blocks == less heat buildup == less grip loss == less premature wear.

3. I ran full tread Toyos on a car not as heavy or fast as yours...but still, a car too heavy and too fast for its brakes and tires (DSP/H3/ITS Integra). I burned them to the ground in less than four weekends. Shaved stuff lasted much better.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

I have run both new full tread (in the past) and new shaved (now and in the future) on my 325is.

The 2x I used full tread, the first event on them kinda sucked, and at the end of the weekend they basically looked shaved, but with some evidence of rubber overheating. After the first event they were great.

The last 2 sets (shaved to 5/32) have given about the same lifetime and were better out of the box.

If you want to get them shaved, Vilven has the best price as they shave for free. And you can specify the depth - I recommend 5/32 or 6/32 (8/32 is full tread). Racers usually go with 4/32 or less - I think 5 or 6 is a good compromise.

So, to sumarize - shaved seems to work better for me for the first event, but doesn't seem to affect overall life. This is for 20 min 9/10ths instructor sessions + time trials. I'm sure my tune would change if I were selecting tires for an enduro or even a 10/10ths sprint race (ie shaved would be the way to go), or just for lower level student groups (ie full-tread is fine and possibly preferable since they won't get "punished" as much and could yield longer life).

Wow, long answer to a sinple question

IMO, YMMV, etc, etc.

Mike

Adam Ligon · **Posted:** Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:12 am

Ok Karl a 944 is not a "big, heavy" car.

Sceond I saw a set of Toyo's today that came shaved from Vilven. And it looks like a monkey with a dull butter knife did it. Now I have no agenda here, simply stating that if I paid anything for a set of new tires and they showed up like these did, there would be hell to pay.....

Arthur McDonald · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:54 am **Posts:** 2052

Get 'em shaved. And if you suspect the involvement of a butter knife, don't worry. The scalloped surface will go away in one session.

Suggest you plan to drive up and back on your street tires and make the commitment to change tires at the event or at least at the hotel the night before. I know, it's a pain, and I have recently not followed this advice. I got away with it, but I ran the risk of picking up a nail with that soft compound and being done before I got to the track.

Have you checked with someone familar with running 944s on track to see if going with the wider rims up front will negatively affect the car's handling or braking? Otherwise, going with the same size wheel/tire all around makes sense in case you do something silly like flat-spot a front tire.

Mark Grabski · **Joined:** Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:33 pm **Posts:** 40

Yes on the 8s all around. There are people running it on 944s and they seem very happy with it. The car understeers somewhat so this should help balance it out. I also have a 3 way adjustment rear sway that's in the middle setting now. I can fine tune that also.

I just made a tire trailer and messed with a bad ground for a day on the wiring so definitly plan on using the dang thing for hauling the track tires to/from track.

Mike, I think you gave me an easy out. I've been torn on this and perhaps splitting the difference by shaving less aggressively is a good compromise.

Thanks,
Mark

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:42 am

Adam Ligon wrote:

Sceond I saw a set of Toyo's today that came shaved from Vilven. And it looks like a monkey with a dull butter knife did it. Now I have no agenda here, simply stating that if I paid anything for a set of new tires and they showed up like these did, there would be hell to pay.....

I'm sure I've gotten a hell of lot more tires shaved than most in the club, and Vilven does a wonderful job. Get Tire Rack to shave a set of MX's and you'll know what I mean. Cheese grater city. Vilven's shaving always appears as if the tire was molded to that tread depth when they're done.

- AB

Adam Ligon · **Posted:** Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:10 pm

Aaron Buckley wrote:

Adam Ligon wrote:

Sceond I saw a set of Toyo's today that came shaved from Vilven. And it looks like a monkey with a dull butter knife did it. Now I have no agenda here, simply stating that if I paid anything for a set of new tires and they showed up like these did, there would be hell to pay.....

I'm sure I've gotten a hell of lot more tires shaved than most in the club, and Vilven does a wonderful job. Get Tire Rack to shave a set of MX's and you'll know what I mean. Cheese grater city. Vilven's shaving always appears as if the tire was molded to that tread depth when they're done.

- AB

The one's I am talking about came from Vilven. And they look like they were shaved with a rusty, dull, cheese grater.

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:28 pm

Adam Ligon wrote:

Ok Karl a 944 is not a "big, heavy" car.

That's not what I said. I said heavy, high horsepower car.

Of course since you're driving a 3000+ pound Volkswagen, I can see why you'd think 3200lbs is not all that heavy :lol4:

Patrick Wellenius · **Posted:** Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:34 pm

Compared to my 3000lb benz, at least both of those cars are fast :cry:

Adam Ligon · **Posted:** Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:34 pm

Karl Shultz wrote:

Adam Ligon wrote:

Ok Karl a 944 is not a "big, heavy" car.

That's not what I said. I said heavy, high horsepower car.

Of course since you're driving a 3000+ pound Volkswagen, I can see why you'd think 3200lbs is not all that heavy :lol4:

I can't believe they weigh that much more than the older 8v 944's like mine., #2750 w/o me.

And for ther record yes the MKIV Jetta is "portly" 3180lbs w/o me. Now the MKII Jetta much more svelte, approx 2600lbs.

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:15 pm

Adam Ligon wrote:

I can't believe they weigh that much more than the older 8v 944's like mine., #2750 w/o me.

That does seem unlikely. Maybe he's got a whole lot of cage in the car? That adds up in a hurry. When I went from the Autopower 6 point to my custom welded fancy cage, my GS-R gained 100lb.

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Shave RA1s for 3200lb Porsche 944 Turbo?

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