2014-2016 Chump rules are out

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:31 am

JamesMilko wrote:

No you see, tech is just there to enforce safety and gross violations. It's your responsibility to tell them about illegal stuff so they can ignore it during impound.

I needed a good laugh to start the day, that did it!

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:22 am

Some of the stuff they have assigned extra value to is ridiculous because there is no way to check it, like a custom chipped or programmed ECU.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:49 am

JamesMilko wrote:

No you see, tech is just there to enforce safety and gross violations. It's your responsibility to tell them about illegal stuff so they can ignore it during impound.

All joking aside, how should this work? What are people's expectations? What should the rules, tech and enforcement process look like?

I actually downloaded the PDF and looked through it. It seemed large, but maybe about what I would have expected and not overwhelming? I haven't seen the previous rule book, but I guess it was pretty thin? And my impression with motorsports is that rules are defined for people to follow, but that you can't expect tech inspections to catch everything? To paraphrase what James says, above I suspect they focus first on safety and then obvious/gross rule violations. It's not like they are going to do a pre-emptive engine teardown, or examine binaries on a ECU in advance? If you have a cheater car, but it is not blatant (i.e. not obvious at tech), someone else has to call you out, the rule book is pulled out and then the deep dive happens? Isn't that sort of how autocross tech works as well?

Richard

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:05 am

Richard Casto wrote:

All joking aside, how should this work? What are people's expectations? What should the rules, tech and enforcement process look like?

I actually downloaded the PDF and looked through it. It seemed large, but maybe about what I would have expected and not overwhelming? I haven't seen the previous rule book, but I guess it was pretty thin? And my impression with motorsports is that rules are defined for people to follow, but that you can't expect tech inspections to catch everything? To paraphrase what James says, above I suspect they focus first on safety and then obvious/gross rule violations. It's not like they are going to do a pre-emptive engine teardown, or examine binaries on a ECU in advance? If you have a cheater car, but it is not blatant (i.e. not obvious at tech), someone else has to call you out, the rule book is pulled out and then the deep dive happens? Isn't that sort of how autocross tech works as well?

Richard

In autocross tech, even for Solo Nationals, it is 100% about safety only. You could have 10 blatantly illegal parts on the car, but the tech inspectors don't care. It's 100% participant policed using the protest process.

I think the new "rules" will end up bringing around a lot more protests than Chump is anticipating. A decent chunk of their participants are current/former autocross people and if you're a motorsports person, you know what to look for with certain cars. In the end, a lot of people likely won't protest as it will seem "weak", but it's the only way to keep it from getting out of control (which it already may be in Chump). - AB

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:12 am

Here's a simple way to look at the way Chump Car has evolved IMO.

If you want to take your $500 car to race and have fun you can do so 100% legal.

If you want to win, you'll probably have to cheat.

Andrew Jonell · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm **Posts:** 1350

The rulebook will be given an overhaul quite soon. That said, it's still crazy broken seeing how Chump has made sure that they're CYA'd and putting 100% of the responsibility for tech not doing their job on the teams.

Also their break down for suspension minimums is unclear, so if I took a Bilstien OE shock that has a valve or I install the valve, get some shifty sleeves, and the sketchiest springs on the planet I'm out how much (per corner)?

$25 for the valve I put on an OE shock?
$75 for adjustable?
$25 for the spring?
$10 for the sleeve?

At least they're acknowledging that sway bars do come from the factory now, though.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:26 am

The protest rules are a step in the right direction. If you believe the chatter from several of the E36 teams there is some blatant cheating going on among the E36s. At some point driver ability stops being an issue particulary when going in a straight line. :lol:

As to why Chump hasn't more actively pursued cheaters ....... it is a business first to them and running off paying customers isn't a good idea in any business venture. John while sometimes an idiot is quite savvy. He has a long term plan and locking in rules for three years is a smart way to go. He realized the big issues such as cheaty cars and contact had reached a point where it was starting to affect attendance. Now the rules are set and most if not all teams will be back even as they bitch and complain with many more new teams joining in.

I think the values are pretty well spot on. They picked the cars that are easily modded to be uber fast or stupid reliable and put a premium on those cars. The new rules aren't going to make Chevy sb350s any less likely to run hot so I don't see V8s dominating anything anymore than they already have over the last 3 years.

Richard, there is a clause that any car deemed too fast will not be allowed to race so I don't think we will see Corvettes or 993 P-cars any time soon. Plus any car valued above $1K is an EC car.

The biggest problem with the protest rules is how petty and nit-picky they can be applied. A team out west recently got protested and lost because they didn't have a current log book in their possession.

Hmmn, does sound a lot like AutoX.................... :lol:

steve remchak · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:31 am

Andrew Jonell wrote:

The rulebook will be given an overhaul quite soon. That said, it's still crazy broken seeing how Chump has made sure that they're CYA'd and putting 100% of the responsibility for tech not doing their job on the teams.

Also their break down for suspension minimums is unclear, so if I took a Bilstien OE shock that has a valve or I install the valve, get some shifty sleeves, and the sketchiest springs on the planet I'm out how much (per corner)?

$25 for the valve I put on an OE shock?
$75 for adjustable?
$25 for the spring?
$10 for the sleeve?

At least they're acknowledging that sway bars do come from the factory now, though.

What was wrong with the OE shocks on the Miata? Isn't a Miata pretty much an out of the box race car? You can't have it both ways. Cheap (stock) MPV or performance parts that add value, those are your only choices. We aren't talking about a Yugo here.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:52 am

steve remchak wrote:

The protest rules are a step in the right direction. If you believe the chatter from several of the E36 teams there is some blatant cheating going on among the E36s.

Maybe this was a rule set a year or two old, but I'm pretty sure there were several cars deemed "NOT A $500 CAR", and listed as such. The E36 was on that list, yet several are now running with no penalty laps.

Like I've said before, Lemon's B.S. judging techique, though arbitrary, still works better in keeping the uber-cheater cars in line.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:01 pm

Vincent Keene wrote:

steve remchak wrote:

The protest rules are a step in the right direction. If you believe the chatter from several of the E36 teams there is some blatant cheating going on among the E36s.

Maybe this was a rule set a year or two old, but I'm pretty sure there were several cars deemed "NOT A $500 CAR", and listed as such. The E36 was on that list, yet several are now running with no penalty laps.

Like I've said before, Lemon's B.S. judging techique, though arbitrary, still works better in keeping the uber-cheater cars in line.

E36s were deemed $500 cars last Sept. 1. They had their own rule set and had to remain stock. Many did but several did not. SRI for one is cheating like hell.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:31 pm

steve remchak wrote:

As to why Chump hasn't more actively pursued cheaters ....... it is a business first to them and running off paying customers isn't a good idea in any business venture. John while sometimes an idiot is quite savvy. He has a long term plan and locking in rules for three years is a smart way to go. He realized the big issues such as cheaty cars and contact had reached a point where it was starting to affect attendance. Now the rules are set and most if not all teams will be back even as they bitch and complain with many more new teams joining in.

Makes perfect sense.

steve remchak wrote:

E36s were deemed $500 cars last Sept. 1. They had their own rule set and had to remain stock. Many did but several did not. SRI for one is cheating like hell.

What is allowing SRI to get away with it today given the above comment (about cheaty cars impacting his business)?

Richard

Jason Tower · **Joined:** Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:31 pm **Posts:** 1173

Vincent Keene wrote:

Here's a simple way to look at the way Chump Car has evolved IMO.

If you want to take your $500 car to race and have fun you can do so 100% legal.

If you want to win, you'll probably have to cheat.

good thing you said probably

steve remchak · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:41 pm

Richard Casto wrote:

steve remchak wrote:

As to why Chump hasn't more actively pursued cheaters ....... it is a business first to them and running off paying customers isn't a good idea in any business venture. John while sometimes an idiot is quite savvy. He has a long term plan and locking in rules for three years is a smart way to go. He realized the big issues such as cheaty cars and contact had reached a point where it was starting to affect attendance. Now the rules are set and most if not all teams will be back even as they bitch and complain with many more new teams joining in.

Makes perfect sense.

steve remchak wrote:

E36s were deemed $500 cars last Sept. 1. They had their own rule set and had to remain stock. Many did but several did not. SRI for one is cheating like hell.

What is allowing SRI to get away with it today given the above comment (about cheaty cars impacting his business)?

Richard

The old protest rules were mostly non-existent and while people complained nothing was done about the cars in question. Tech inspection was also responsible for valuation and unless the inspector knew what to look for on an E36 stuff got thru. Rumor has it that SRI was running an OBDII 2.8l when the rules specifically stated those were forbidden. E36 motors from '93 to '98 look alike for the most part. My track car motor looks stock yet it dynoed at 209rwhp. Stock hp for a 2.5l is like 170 at the crank.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:41 pm

Jason Tower wrote:

Vincent Keene wrote:

Here's a simple way to look at the way Chump Car has evolved IMO.

If you want to take your $500 car to race and have fun you can do so 100% legal.

If you want to win, you'll probably have to cheat.

good thing you said probably

Consistantly win................ = cheat. :lol:

Andrew Jonell · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm **Posts:** 1350

steve remchak wrote:

What was wrong with the OE shocks on the Miata? Isn't a Miata pretty much an out of the box race car? You can't have it both ways. Cheap (stock) MPV or performance parts that add value, those are your only choices. We aren't talking about a Yugo here.

It's not even specific to a Miata, and Chump's MPV for first generation Miatas don't really make any sense. I found it really bizarre that a bone stock 1st gen Integra (old Integrenader) received 2 penalty laps when the Biohazzard MR2 got away lap free.

That said, I find it hilarious that they are playing the alphabet soup game with Hondas/Acuras and BMWs.

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