THSCC Forums

The reason I bring up T6 in the wet is because of the grind/sealer that was completed what... January '09?

I consider that turn a fluke (for lack of a better term) because what appears to be happening is the sealer has MORE grip than the old part of the track in the wet. But they didn't grind/seal the entire string of corners, or even the whole corner... all they did was the apexes and some turn-ins and track outs. So you go from sealer to non-sealer (and then I think back to sealer) right when you want to get on the power coming out of T6... which leads to disaster in most high horsepower/torque cars (I'd be VERY interested to know what kinds of cars they've pulled from the wall!)

Of course, it also doesn't help that the walls are the closest there of any at VIR (and of most tracks in our region.)

Thankfully, my AV events on Full Course have been in the dry... but if it's wet in November, I will be asking VIR Control to display a debris flag at T5a & T6 if the track is (or gets) wet. (It's been since March since I've been there, but I haven't heard that they've done anything to remedy the situation.)

But even considering that turn, in the wet as almost a GIVEN that something will happen... by the workers own account, they've only had 13 cars in the wall at T6 this year... and that's how many events? How many cars? How many laps? How many different drivers? Please don't get me wrong... none of them should have happened, and my guess is the pavement had more to do with them than anything else... but at the same time, this has happened now at VIR probably almost every event that its wet... and yet, some still don't seem to get it that that turn deserves the utmost respect and caution... especially in the wet... especially in a non-competitive environment like a DE.

We don't know how many of those 13 had drivers familiar with VIR, let alone if it was wet... of if any of those 13 had instructors, how many of those instructors had instructed at VIR in the wet, how many had instructed or driven the track in the wet since the grind/repave... etc. etc. All we can do is speculate.

YES... driving a car fast on a race track has inherent dangers. But in the context of LEARNING how to drive a car fast on a race track, one MUST learn when those dangers are minimized, and when they are magnified BEFORE they can even begin to assess their own level of risk and loss acceptance.

Wrecking a car on a race track should never be acceptable... and I'm sorry, but that statement to me says "I accept as fact I'm going to wreck this car on a racetrack some day." I simply don't think that's a good mantra to drive by.

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Stacy King
Midlife Crisis Participant

this is a great discussion, and I apologize for intruding...what drives people to be competitive in HPDE? I mean, as a total newb I understand people are grouped based on skill and then progress as the instructors see fit, so where's the competitive need come in? Isn't the point of HPDE to learn, improve based on your own strengths and weaknesses, then stick around for TimeTrials to compete?

I guess its inherent in some people to turn everything into a competition, but I just don't understand how someone "wins" at HPDE...I mean, there are no cool "1st place Green Group" magnets running around, are there?

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Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86

Male chromosomes play a big part

Some folks show up at a race track and expect to race. That involves passing everyone else on track. Or trying to ... You see that little Miata in front of you and you just have to get by ...
The big surprise for most folks their first time on track is how mentally demanding it is. Lots of brain cycles involved and one lapse is all it takes to create an incident. Sometimes you get so focused on your line, etc that you forget the obvious stuff - like its started to rain.
Before your first time on track be as prepared as you can. Pour over track maps. Know the corner numbers/names. Know the flags. Watch videos. Know the lingo.
The more you can get your subconscious to handle the better. The rest of your brain will need all the capacity it can get.

Frank

Stack, the sealer to pavement problems of last year and this spring are all gone. The sealer and the pavement have blended and the sudden loss of grip at the transition points no longer are a factor. T6 eats more cars than any other on that track, and as you said it is normally higher power cars. The reason for this problem, I believe is, the small rise and drop right in the apex of the turn. At this point the driver can see the track straightening out although the car has not completed the turn. Application of power at that time occurs as the car crests the rise and the subsequent drop behind the crest unloads the rear suspension causing the wheels to break traction. All the cars this week had instructors. All the cars this week were of the higher HP type. Instructors can controll steering errors and braking errors, but you can only forewarn students of power application errors. If they err in that regard, by the time the instructor hears the engine rpm increase the wheels will have broken traction. An instructor can warn a student but if the warning is not heeded or he "forgets" the deed is done before you can correct him. I'm sure this was the case with the GT ford yesterday, cause I talked extensively with the instructor involved.
It was totally driver error, not listening to the insrtuctor. No one is perfect, We All Make Mistakes, sometimes they are of little consequence, sometimes great consequence. It happens and that's the point. If you do everything your told and don't push your self beyond your capabilities you'll certainly minimize the possibility of incident.
Denying that incidents happen will not make them go away, every venue I've ever attended stress safety and incident free sessions. My point is that they do happen and drivers are the only ones who can controll that, being forewarned is fore-armed. And that includes what car you bring.

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2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

Were these students or instructors? If they were instructors, they should not be instructing then No reason to ball up a car in HPDE especially in the rain. Even if you are running a lap timer in your car, you are not going to set fast lap of your life. We all know how tricky it is through there. That is part of the learning process. The same as on the street, do you take the I40/I540 fly over ramp the same speed in the rain as the dry?

Stacy and I agree 100% about how wrong the mentality of you are going to total a car in HPDE.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

huh, i thought Ryan was the defending HPDE Champion.........

many of us within THSCC Steven started in HPDE at the same time. i attended several DEs with the same group of people for about two seasons. a DE is more fun IMO when you know who is on the track with you. the friendly competition is natural in this case.

Butler and I spent many a session with FSR PCA swapping positions nose to tail. all in the name of education of course.

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BenchWarmer Motorsports

another one of those damn LeMons heads

just another Chump

we are an Autocross Club Dammit............

Bingo! Stay as far away from those kinds of people that are boosting about passing everyone and not being passed.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

I agree with Frank, virtually everyone has a competitive instinct. If you didn't you wouldn't be in motorsports. 90% of the drivers out there want to be able to drive faster, and don't feel good after being passed by a 93WHP miata. How you improve your driving is the instructors job, and its not always by pressing your right foot down.
The real trophy for a HPDE is driving your car out the gate of the motor sport park in the same condition it drove in. Thats how you "WIN" in HPDE.
Many people don't keep this premise in the fore ground and they are the ones who most likely be involved in an incident.

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2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

I've never seen any, but I hope to soon. That's hysterical.

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

FWIW, I don't think anyone else was really saying that, either. Jason Tower was the closest, maybe, but none of the rest of us (and without going to look it up, I really think all he said was that you'd have some sort of incident, not necessarily total a car). All I'm saying is that you should make sure you realize that is a POSSIBILITY and make sure you are fine with the risk. Never assume your insurance will "just cover it", and even if they do what the ramifications of *that* might be.

Or, short of that, just be willing to total it.


--Donnie

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My Blog

i said that if you do enough track days, sooner or later you'll have an incident. i defined neither "enough" nor "incident". although enough probably means "a lot" and incident means "something bad".

personally, i'd never take a car to the track that, if it were totaled or blew up, would seriously hurt me financially. and guess what? i have the exact same attitude regarding my street car too, as well as just about everything else that i own except my house. it's not a track philosophy, it's a how to live your life without going balls deep into debt philosophy.

Exactly, its called having a realistic assessment of risk and risk management/mitigation.

I think it is just natural competitiveness. Hell, I drive a 90whp car so I don't pass anyone unless I get moved back to green group I pretty much don't pass anyone. I don't have a data logger so I just have to judge by the seat of my pants and by lap times after the fact if I'm faster. I just want to get more proficient ie: faster/smoother but you have to push harder to do that. As you get faster eventually you find the place where you run out of talent (or tar). Hopefully, you still have a margin of error and it is manifested by a correction or a slower lap. There is a difference between being competitive and wanting to improve and being laser focused on lap times or on the guy in front of you. If you are not trying to go faster you are just doing parade laps.

So why not just say THAT !!!???!!!!???

(I understand it wasn't you that got me started... but you understand my point now I think.)

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Stacy King
Midlife Crisis Participant

What are you guys talking about? My fridge is covered in them.