THSCC Forums

I must not be fully informed...Mr Campbell was sixth in DSP (at least according to the sololive results)--maybe you meant Brian Peters?

http://sololive.scca.com/DSP.html

It may be true that e46 chassis will be better for DSP (given the UP/BD provisions across a wider range of cars on that line) but the development costs (and initial car $) are potentially >2x what this car costs...just look at what's being done at Vorshlag:

http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/392405.aspx

To be considered "done" after finishing second at Nationals (plus the numerous other wins in 2005-7) *seems* premature, but is most likely perfectly A-OK for the majority of us mere mortals

If there are better choices out there you could post some info/guidance to help us out? Thanks.

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Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86

Steve, e30, e36, and e46 all have separate lines in DSP so there really isn't much UPBD for the 330i and I doubt swappable parts from the e46 328 are that much lighter. I'm not convinced (yet) that a DSP e46 330i will have a better power to weight ratio than a fully DSP prepped e36 328i. Actually the 325 might be the e36 car to start with given the OBD1 and ease of tuning though the 328 has the torque that may be better for solo. I may be wrong though.

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2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

I must have mistyped...sorry. (Please reread my second paragraph)

I am aware the E30, E36 and E46 are on different lines...that was not the point I was attempting to make.

There is not much compelling reason to update/backdate components between E30s, so moving to a different line (E46) makes sense. Given all of the available e46 configurations, there are additional UD/BD swap ideas that can potentially facilitate a better overall build. Check out the vorshlag build thread link.

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Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86

Wow, good read. Should have read that first .

_________________
2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

I'm sorry... I haven't even read any other posts besides the OP and I gotta say

BULLSH*T!

I cannot STAND that mentality and I've got to call people out for it. #1... how many cars have seen actually totaled? Sure, there are plenty of offs and even times when cars reach tire walls and/or armco... but very few of those actually result in a totaled car.

One of the earliest things about crisis management is "You look where you want to go, NOT where you are going" ... if you're trying to avoid a tire wall, but you're focused on that tire wall... you will hit that tire wall.

By the same token... if you go into track events thinking you're going to hit something, or even "I don't care about this car, I can walk away from it"... eventually... you WILL hit something!!!

But if you go into it smart, and prepared, and focus on smart driving and learning to be the best driver you can, not just the fastest, you can go YEARS if not your entire track career without hitting anything.

You want to go racing? Then fine to think that way. But when you're talking about DE's that's at best a disingenuous way of thinking, and at worst a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I'm sorry, but it's thinking like that that is turning people away from track events and when combined with organizations that have that mentality, is giving our sport a bad name.

:/ rant off

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Stacy King
Midlife Crisis Participant

Who have you been running with mostly Bernie?

How many of those incidents were in the wet at VIR? If it was wet, is anyone relaying the danger of the differences in VIR's pavement since the grind/re-seal?

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Stacy King
Midlife Crisis Participant

So Stacy, what you are saying is that if someone attends a well-run, safe club DE they will not have to worry about wrecking their car?

I've been to 10- 12 DEs with various clubs (incl. THSCC) at VIR, Road Atl, Sebring, Mid-OH etc - all of which I considered well run. I have had events where no one has gone off with damage, I have had events that had several cars go off and hit something and in my estimation would have been considered totals.

I think is disingenous to ignore the fact that it could happen - it doesn't mean it will, it doesn't mean that you can't do all things possible to minimize the chances, but it can still happen. I agree if you go into an event obsessing on not hitting anything and thats all you focus on you probably either will hit something or be a rolling chicane. Maybe then it is not the sport for you. Try Road Rallys.

I don't go into an event thinking I am going to hit something or live in fear of it. I just accept the possibility. There are 4 things you can do to minimize or deal with that occurance

1. Run with clubs you and others w/exp deem safe
2. Have a car that you are prepared to walk away from (not want to walk away from but can afford to)
3. Buy DE insurance - available from several companies
4. Stay within your limits as a driver. This doesn't preclude something happening, we are all competitive and will push the envelope or that someone else will cause something where we are collateral damage, it just minimizes the chances.

I hope I can go my entire DE career without hitting anything harder than I have already. That is my plan, however, I know the risks involved and understand that motorsports are dangerous (I know because it is on a plaque affixed to my seat ) and even though I am only doing DE's and not really racing DTD and accept those risks - I just don't obsess about them.

I don't think you read anything I wrote after I said Bulls*t



I never said to ignore the fact that it can happen. But the "not willing to walk away from a totaled car" statement promotes the mentality that it is inevitable. And it is anything BUT inevitable.

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Stacy King
Midlife Crisis Participant

I agree that the clubs and instructors play a role, but I try to reinforce the Peter Krause wisdom about safety starting in the driver's brain. Everything else becomes a question of degree.

I think its important to differentiate between a wrecked car caused by driver error and a wrecked car caused by other factors (i.e. another driver hitting you). My observation is that the number of cars wrecked and *not* caused by its own driver committing an error is pretty small.

So I think you very much control your own destiny in a DE. Some folks even pass on wet laps ...

I would bet the incident sheet backs that up - Instructors have more offs because as a group they choose to take more risks.

Frank

<LOL>

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Nope read it and actually read most of the posts in this thread. You took offense to the statement about walking away from your car and that anything said to the contrary discourages people from attending events. I think it is unrealistic to think that it can't happen to you if you do all the right things. It doesn't mean that it will, but it could. Then it is a matter of risk assessment/tolerance. You are downplaying that risk by not pointing out that there is an inherent risk to driving in an HPDE. While it may be a flip way of putting it, I don't see how making the statement that you should drive a car you are willing to walk away from sets unrealistic expectations. How many people in this club have a DE car that is "less costly" than their primary or AX car because of the inherent risks on track? Again, it is your response to point 2 that suggests that if you don't drive like an ass you can drive your Ferrari at a DE with no fear. I disagree. Shit happens even to non-asses. (There is a punchline there but I will avoid it )

And yes, there are more "incidents" ass and non-ass included as you go up in groups. You don't see too many bad offs in green group because they are all scared shitless and afraid to push the gas or have scared their instructor shitless so he has slowed them down They are not pushing anything, they are just learning where the track goes, when to turn, and how to give point bys. They don't have time to find an adhesion level. Move up to the intermediate and advanced groups and the situation changes, people are pushing their cars and skills harder, they are passing in turns, they are closer to their limits, so they will go off more and when they do it is faster. I still don't think that all of those who go off are driving like ass, they may have pushed and just made a mistake and the room for that is less. That should not discourage anyone who is serious about getting on track from trying it, if it does I would question that they would have taken the plunge at all.

I pretty much agree with Franks post. For the most part the driver does control their own destiny, but not entirely and therefore, must assess the risks to their own tolerance.

I mostly try to stay on pavement on wet laps

I especially agree with that last statement

My point Rob, is that the vast majority of offs at a track event do NOT result in impacting anything, let alone totaling a car!!!!!

Why is that so hard to understand?!?!

I'm certainly not saying it can't happen even when all precautions have been taken, but I AM saying that WHEN all precautions have been taken (by the driver and the organizer), the chances of it happening are extremely low.

You keep saying things like "I still don't think that all of those who go off are driving like ass" ... I don't think that either!! If you do track events, you WILL have an off at some point. What I'm trying to get across, is that that off doesn't have to be (nor will it likely be) one that will end up with anything damaged more than pride!

Worst-case scenarios should ALWAYS be in the back of someone's mind... they should always be the basis of one's risk assessment. As an organizer, I have to live by that rule to keep my events as safe as I can keep them. But that's different than the mentality that the statement implies.

I'm not saying that anyone who has an off, or anyone that has an off with an impact drives like an ass. But if you look at the very few incidents where one would have to walk away from a car, I'm willing to bet my reputation that if looked at honestly, most incidents could have easily (or at least realistically) been avoided. (But again, we're talking about off's that end up with a totaled car... you keep wanting to lump those in with every-day offs.)

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Stacy King
Midlife Crisis Participant

I agree with all those statements and I think that is what you meant to say, it just didn't read that way. I still think that every individual has to decide for themselves their acceptable level of risk and act accordingly.

Rob

Stacy, Ford GT National Rally was my group yesterday and today. One GT ford damaged in two days of rain. Turn 6 VIR full. Monday a 1969 mustang and a porsche boxter same turn 6 Vir full. First Settlers Region PCA. I've noticed that the problems are more a function of the driver than a function of the organization with one exception whom I won't mention.

I've instructed for Trackdaze twice this year, FSR PCA twice this year, National corvette museum,Marque Madness with a combined Mercedes/Audi/BMW clubs,Ten tenths motorsports, and NASA.

The figures I stated are from EV crew members at VIR. If I led you to believe that I personally witnessed all these incidents, I'm sorry, that is not the case. But it is stats from people who pull cars out of the walls at the track. Not all are totaled wrecks and I did not say or imply that they were.
I did say that it is an injustice to lead new people to believe that it not a possibility.... It happens all the time.... Both Rob and yourself stated that the driver is in controll, and I concur. But the nature of the sport breeds competition and fosters a desire to drive faster, in most people. Good instructors can and do control these urges most of the time. However in cases where throttle control is the major factor in the incident, the instructor has very little control before the driver looses control. This is usually the case in turn 6.

If the statement"something you can walk away from"is too strong for your liking then let me amend it to say"something that if it becomes damaged won't cause great consternation and grief"

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2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2