⚠ Forum Archived — The THSCC forums were discontinued (last post: 2024-05-18). This read-only archive preserves club history. Visit thscc.com →  |  Search this archive with Google: site:forums.thscc.com your search terms

THSCC Forums

Tarheel Sports Car Club Forums
It is currently Tue Apr 07, 2026 10:10 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Let's talk strategy.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:16 pm 
Offline
I got a SUX2000!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:07 am
Posts: 2443
Location: In the garage, under a big old Mercedes
Inspired by this thread, let's talk a bit about autocross strategies. Share how you approach an event, how you handle your course walks, whatever you want to share, or ask about. I'm hoping this will become a thread where we can all learn something.

I'll start.

Over the course of 2008, I think I ended up, by the end of the year, at "go as hard as possible, all of the time, and hope to get a clean run occasionally." I heard a lot of "Karl, you're going really fast, you just have to clean it up." At Sanford in October, this strategy came good for me. But most often, it did not. This strategy also found me replacing my front bumper, and setting one cone on fire. Not in that order.

Chuck Branscomb's suggestion was as follows:

Chuck Branscomb wrote:
At your first event this year, you're going to go out and purposely run at 97% instead of 100 and over. For your first two runs, you're going to do them at 97%. That is your goal. Not to get a good time. Not to kick ass on the course. Just drive 97% while feeling every facet of response from the car. You're going to drive near the top of the slip angle/tractive force curve, BUT since you're going to be doing 97%, you'll be just to the left of the top of the tractive peak....going just as fast as being just over the peak but with a touch of extra grip when you need it for slight corrections.


For this year? At the moment, I'm considering pulling the trigger on a data acquisition system.

_________________
Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:30 pm 
Offline
Stalker's boyfriend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:35 pm
Posts: 2858
Location: Looking for Chuck on the Intraweb
Data Acquisition is only as good as your ability to get data on the same course and the same car. Thus a codriver with skills is almost a necessity. While I think you can calculate the data in a single person world, but it will be hard to differentiate the variables and how they equate to real world performance. - AB

_________________
'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:42 pm
Posts: 1115
Location: Cary, NC
Something I have found to help me some is a video camera. I think it helped me the most at a Prosolo where you can sit down at night and review your lines and see where you are pinching off points or going to fast into others. I think recording your runs will be better to start off with than jumping into a data acquisition system. JMHO

_________________
2010 Honda Fit Sport
Couple of bicycles


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:01 pm 
Offline
Queen of the Guinea Hens
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:32 pm
Posts: 3122
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Keith Vail wrote:
Something I have found to help me some is a video camera. I think it helped me the most at a Prosolo where you can sit down at night and review your lines and see where you are pinching off points or going to fast into others. I think recording your runs will be better to start off with than jumping into a data acquisition system. JMHO


I agree, unless you have a faster codriver. If you have a faster codriver, well, data is better and by far. ESPECIALLY at a ProSolo. And even with a faster codriver, I found it rare that the faster guy didn't learn *something*, too.


--Donnie

_________________
My Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:12 pm 
Offline
JACKASS!!!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:47 am
Posts: 3683
Karl,

It's kinda hard to see the course when your head is in the driver's seat (so to speak). When's the last time that you didn't overthink things and just drove?

_________________
Has no responsibility whatsoever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:22 pm 
Offline
I got a SUX2000!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:07 am
Posts: 2443
Location: In the garage, under a big old Mercedes
Wes Eargle wrote:
Karl,

It's kinda hard to see the course when your head is in the driver's seat (so to speak). When's the last time that you didn't overthink things and just drove?


Sanford in October.

_________________
Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:09 am 
Offline
JACKASS!!!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:47 am
Posts: 3683
Karl Shultz wrote:

Sanford in October.


As the shampoo directions state, lather, rinse and repeat as necessary.

_________________
Has no responsibility whatsoever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:30 am 
Offline
I err on the side of being stupid
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:15 pm
Posts: 4743
Location: Greenville, NC
Wes Eargle wrote:
Karl Shultz wrote:

Sanford in October.


As the shampoo directions state, lather, rinse and repeat as necessary.


Also, try to remember to have fun, I think that was Jason Mauldin's point in the other thread.

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:35 pm 
Offline
Rookie phenom
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 11:00 am
Posts: 1792
Location: Raleigh, NC
I would not add any technology such as video cameras, data acquisition, helicopters, etc to the equation until you have the most important technology, the brain, in the right place.

These are my suggestions:
1) After one course walk, you can visualize 80-90% of the course. Not every cone, but every section. After the second course walk you can visualize the entire thing. After the third walk, you can run it in your mind.

2) When you run the course in your mind, you are actually feeling the car and what it is doing. You always, always make the perfect run in your head. No negatives allowed. If you think the car will push, it will push twice as hard. If you worry about a slalom cone, you will hit it.

3) You should be able to provide a good estimate on the time it will take you to run the course at 9/10ths.

4) After every run you take a minute and overlay your run with what you visualized as the perfect run. Make corrections there.

5) When you come to the line, your mind is clear. No worries, no thoughts, just another day in the park. You have already "driven" the course 20 times. Yes, your pulse will be up slightly, but no nerves.

6) If you mess up, which you will, get back to the line you were visualizing. Don't try to make up the lose time, you can't. If you push on turn around, when you get back to overlay the run in your mind, you only have one mistake to figure out why. Not a whole series cause you tried foolishly to make up for that mistake.

I hate when I would get to the line and there was a chatty starter. I don't want to chat at that point :-) As a starter, you can easily pick out the fast guys. When I say go, the dude sitting there trying to focus and remember that last cones, sucks. They are not ready. The top drivers will almost immediately dump the clutch and rocket out of there...no delays.

Funny, these kinds of mental preparations carried over well to road racing.

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:51 pm 
Offline
Retired Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:34 pm
Posts: 3276
Location: Durham, NC
jimpastorius wrote:
I hate when I would get to the line and there was a chatty starter. I don't want to chat at that point :-) As a starter, you can easily pick out the fast guys. When I say go, the dude sitting there trying to focus and remember that last cones, sucks. They are not ready. The top drivers will almost immediately dump the clutch and rocket out of there...no delays.

Funny, these kinds of mental preparations carried over well to road racing.


Funny, when they say "go" at the start, I usually go when I am ready and not them. ;) Granted the strategy should be different for Pro-solo and wheel to wheel racing with rolling or standing starts.

I do agree that starting line is not the place for deep philosophical discussions or comments about the weather.

_________________
Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:56 pm 
Offline
Retired Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:34 pm
Posts: 3276
Location: Durham, NC
jimpastorius wrote:
4) After every run you take a minute and overlay your run with what you visualized as the perfect run. Make corrections there.


I am not in the same league as some of you, but IMHO, I think that particular point that Jim makes is very important. You have to be able to identify what didn't work based upon your course walk. Don't formulate a plan and stick to it each and every run. Figure out what you got right and keep doing it and figure out what you got wrong and have a plan on how to fix it for the next run. Telling yourself you are going to "try harder" is not enough detail. You need to have specific element by element ideas on what is going on.

_________________
Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:34 pm 
Offline
Queen of the Guinea Hens
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:32 pm
Posts: 3122
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
jimpastorius wrote:
I would not add any technology such as video cameras, data acquisition, helicopters, etc to the equation until you have the most important technology, the brain, in the right place.

These are my suggestions:
1) After one course walk, you can visualize 80-90% of the course. Not every cone, but every section. After the second course walk you can visualize the entire thing. After the third walk, you can run it in your mind.

2) When you run the course in your mind, you are actually feeling the car and what it is doing. You always, always make the perfect run in your head. No negatives allowed. If you think the car will push, it will push twice as hard. If you worry about a slalom cone, you will hit it.

3) You should be able to provide a good estimate on the time it will take you to run the course at 9/10ths.

4) After every run you take a minute and overlay your run with what you visualized as the perfect run. Make corrections there.

5) When you come to the line, your mind is clear. No worries, no thoughts, just another day in the park. You have already "driven" the course 20 times. Yes, your pulse will be up slightly, but no nerves.

6) If you mess up, which you will, get back to the line you were visualizing. Don't try to make up the lose time, you can't. If you push on turn around, when you get back to overlay the run in your mind, you only have one mistake to figure out why. Not a whole series cause you tried foolishly to make up for that mistake.

I hate when I would get to the line and there was a chatty starter. I don't want to chat at that point :-) As a starter, you can easily pick out the fast guys. When I say go, the dude sitting there trying to focus and remember that last cones, sucks. They are not ready. The top drivers will almost immediately dump the clutch and rocket out of there...no delays.

Funny, these kinds of mental preparations carried over well to road racing.


I'd just like to say this is what works for Jim. I could NEVER do this. I don't have the attention span or something. Once I've run the course once, I don't visualize again, really. I go over the run from memory and note my errors, and am usually pretty good at that. Maybe that's the same thing, I don't know, but that's more my procedure. I can usually compare two "real" runs after I've done them in my head, but I never add in my virtual run.

Why? Because my virtual run is never better than a best guess. I've tried several times to time my virtual runs in my head and never been very close (ie. within 10%). Ever. So I quit bothering with that. When I visualize, I do it with braking and gas, but I never worry much when visualizing with how much of either. I think it works better for me to visualize looking ahead properly. When I do that, the gas and brake "just work."

I've never bothered thinking about pushing or loose when visualizing. These are conditions brought on by errors, and you should be working to be good enough to correct these as close to immediately as you can. The great Mario Andretti was once interviewed after qualifying on the pole at a race and pretty much putting a whipping on the field. The interviewer asked him what it was like to run what looked like a "perfect" lap. He said there's no such thing as a perfect lap and the racers job was to simply get good at minimizing mistakes. He said he had several on that lap, but admitted they were very minor and that it was definitely a good lap, just not perfect.

You're not having some out-of-body experience here. You're DRIVING the car. You've got a plan through visualization of where you need to be and where you need to be looking. For me, the rest just falls into place and when I can minimize my mistakes, I have a good run. I'm not saying I beat everyone, I just have a good enough run that I say "well, there was time in this place and that place, but I did everything my talent would let me do and now I'm shaking because I nailed everything I could do on that run."

As for number 5, well, that's not something you can just tell someone to do, unfortunately. Reading the book Aaron recommended can likely help, however. So does a lot of practice, as well as Ryan's mantra of having fun. I usually do my best when I prepare well *and* when I remember to try to do something that will put a BIGGER smile on my face. Pulling to the line should be every bit as much of a happy time as much of the rest of your day. Not as good as the time right after a great run, but still good. You're fixing to go do what you love. It doesn't need to be anything else.

These are just my perspectives on something that's much bigger than just a list of what works for a particular person. Have some fun finding what works for YOU. When you're having fun you will naturally relax more, which will also help. You might also consider just borrowing a heart rate monitor and wearing it at an event. See where and when your heart rate spikes and try to think about what you were thinking then. Analyze that part of it. You might find out something about yourself you don't even know. *shrug*


--Donnie

_________________
My Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:38 pm 
Offline
Stalker's boyfriend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:35 pm
Posts: 2858
Location: Looking for Chuck on the Intraweb
Donnie brought up some good points. No matter what I do, EVERY time I pull to the line I'm nervous. Whether it's a local event to Nationals, it's something I don't have great control of... but I am working on.

I tend to do visualization after each run, but much of that is due to the inability to watch the video. This year will be different. I have a 7" portable video/picture player that accepts SD, Compact Flash and Memory Stick and Bryan got an Aiptek HD Camcorder that uses SD. We got two 4GB cards. We plan to have all of his runs on one card, and mine on another, so that while one is prepping to run, the other can watch his run on the player over and over, and not worry about reloading the card in the camera.

I find when we do video at the ProSolos, it's very easy to see my mistakes and correct them the next session. For the Tours, this is the answer.

I still believe, like a lot of people have said, the calmer you are the better you'll do. When I tend to put down my best runs is when I'm at a local event and just don't care about the results. The person who best illustrates this on the board is Mike Whitney. Whether this is true or not, his runs all seem to be, "Hey y'all, watch this" type runs, and because he's having fun, he doesn't tend to tighten up and lays down some screamers. - AB

_________________
'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:53 pm 
Offline
Honda >> Ford
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:54 am
Posts: 2052
I'm no good at memorizing anything, so I like to take notes about the course. If there's a course map, I'll scribble down distances between cones in slaloms, Chicago box and lane change dimensions. If there is no course map, and I'm serious, I'll make one. I just like to refer to it while I'm in line for my first run of a heat. I do envy Jim for being able to commit the course to memory so quickly. And I hated Mike Whitney the time he drove my old Mustang at Sanford, and before the run chanted off every element of the remarkably long course (he helped set up).

I also hate it when the announcer is yapping while I'm on the start line. The worst was when Ron Spencer, having made a big deal of making whinnying noises on the PA while I was on deck, followed up by shouting "wait, stop!" right as I launched. He swears it wasn't directed at me, but I still don't believe him :)

Being well rested the day of an autocross helps too. Granted, if you have to get up at 4 AM to drive to Laurinburg, there's not much to be done other than get a good night's sleep a day in advance. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, but staying up until 2 AM surfing wagonmaster.com on your iPhone, then shotgunning two or three energy drinks the next morning might not be the BEST way to get ready :) :)

_________________
Art McDonald
Premier Amateur #518
2008 Dishman Cup
Pivot Cone Snob

Rodney is a waxer (but in a good way)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:38 pm 
Offline
My stiffness is only an illusion
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:49 pm
Posts: 4658
Location: on line looking at car ads
I like the comments so far. My memory is crap and has always been crap, so I'm a visual person. I'll make notes on the sticky points of the course and the rest just plays out.

Now, as for strategy this year, the T&T is going to be partly on street tires so I can go out and have fun learning this new ride and get these visions of do-nuts out of my head. After that it's down to the business of understanding the car. I figure midseason I'll focus on the finer points of brake points and turn in. I'm not used to that much real-estate and horse power in front of me. That mustang is nothing like the 328. This is a little rougher around the edges.

BTW, as for the comments on the starter, I can't agree more. When I was a starter in my early days, I remember Brad McKey coming to the line and wouldn't respond to any question I gave him. I thought he was an ass. Now I understand why he was that way. As a starter, unless your asked a question by the driver, leave well enough alone. Let the driver focus.

_________________
Rodney

'08 Bullitt mustang, CAM 7
Autox VP '09-'10, President '11-'12, interim President 2nd half of ‘14
proud recipient of the Bowie Grey service award '12
Now just a guy driving a mustang....


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group