2007 NCAC Club Cup

Stephen Westerfield · **Posted:** Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:21 am

So one night last week, Justin Barbry from Triad, Shane Eudy from Highlands, Dave McKenzie from CCR, and myself had a discussion regarding the club cup. The goal was to nail down a format for the club cup that would "stick" as opposed to us coming up with a new point system every year that trys to accomidate one or another special situation. What we agreed on is this...

Shane Eudy on Highlands forum wrote:

The top 10 RAW and top 10 PAX times from each club will be added together and the club with the lowest combined time will be declared the winner.

One note to add to this....you must participate both days for your times to count.

Matt McGrain · **Posted:** Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:16 pm

Seems pretty straightforward & fair. :forum:

WalterHouston · **Posted:** Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:22 pm

If this keeps the other clubs happy and willing to keep participating in NCAC, we did the right thing to agree.

But, this leaves out the impact of trophying in a class. The top 10 raw and pax could come from a few classes. For example, if I am lucky enough to trophy in CP next weekend, it won't make a difference. There is no way any CP car will ever be top 10 in pax. It is highly unlikely I will ever be top 10 raw!

Maybe there is no way to make it fair to both large and small club, or make everybody happy. But, there has to be a way to include the impact of trophying in a class. We are a club of pretty smart people. We aren't a bunch of circle track UCAR drivers or drag racers! :wink:

(Self depreciating humor - I'm into both of those)

Let's try to develop a points system to even out the size disparity. We do that very thing with the pax system related to speed. For example, if there were 100 entries and THSCC had 50 while another club had 25, their 1st place points could count twice as much as ours. Continue that system for each class down through the places, or maybe just through 1, 2 and 3 to negate larger clubs' larger numbers.

This just an idea and a start. Surely it can be refined and the problems worked out. Then, we can propose it to the other clubs.

I just don't like my effort not making a difference.

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:40 pm

A Cp car could get top pax. Let's not cloud the issue by factoring in driver ability and car prep.

I like the points formula that you proposed. We can just send Rob Harvey to win A-Mod, the rest of THSCC stays home in the AC. Rob gets first place points and wins the cup for THSCC.

The NCAC is about individual drivers and being the best driver in *your class* in the state. The Club Cup was supposed to be fun and encourage participation. If it isn't working, then we ought to gather 'round the cup and burn it and roast marshmallows. It might as well be put to good use.

For the future...

I'd like to see a "Dixie" cup and have it be a Triad vs THSCC 2 day event in Danville. We run the event on one day, they get it the other day.

The winner gets a pretty obvious and cheap trophy. We could even write names and car classes on said Dixie cups and use them as trophies.

This is supposed to be fun.

Bernie Baake · **Posted:** Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:47 pm

So what this says is: If your not in the top ten in times or in pax, and if you aren't in contention for first place in your class, and your club hasn't made this a points event, then there really isn't any reason to enter this event unless you just want to burn up tires and spend your money. I really don't see how this will benefit the sport....What this does in fact is discourage people who may have had a chance to place in their class from comming. I believe its this mind set that keeps small clubs small. I KNOW THAT THIS FORMAT WILL NOT ENCOURAGE PARTICIPATION. (Faceitiously) Hell why don't we make the Club Cup win based on FTD that way only four cars have to show up, And the rest of us can find an autox or HPDE to drive in.

Thats just my opinion....But I'm stickin to it :soap:

Matt McGrain · **Posted:** Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:00 pm

scottjohnson wrote:

A Cp car could get top pax. Let's not cloud the issue by factoring in driver ability and car prep.

The NCAC is about individual drivers and being the best driver in *your class* in the state.

IMO, Scott hit the nail on the head. NCAC to me is about trying to be the best in your respective class. I may be biased b/c my car is what I'd consider 'pax friendly' but we've had some great battles in DS the last few years at the NCAC and that's what it's all about.

Unless there's an equal number of drivers in each club, the only way to encourage every one to be psyched about having a hand in the overall cup is to create some super complicated point system.

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:10 pm

Bernie Baake wrote:

So what this says is: If your not in the top ten in times or in pax, and if you aren't in contention for first place in your class, and your club hasn't made this a points event, then there really isn't any reason to enter this event unless you just want to burn up tires and spend your money. I really don't see how this will benefit the sport....What this does in fact is discourage people who may have had a chance to place in their class from comming. I believe its this mind set that keeps small clubs small. I KNOW THAT THIS FORMAT WILL NOT ENCOURAGE PARTICIPATION. (Faceitiously) Hell why don't we make the Club Cup win based on FTD that way only four cars have to show up, And the rest of us can find an autox or HPDE to drive in.

Thats just my opinion....But I'm stickin to it :soap:

Yup, you are right. Why autocross at all unless toy think you will win :roll:

I go because:

1) I like to autocross.
2) I like to hang out with all my autocross buddies that I don't see anywhere else.
3) I like to benchmark my performance against the best autocrossers in the state/region.

I see the NCAC as a mini-Nationals for those of us that don't go to nationals. The talent at the NCAC isn't as deep, but it's a nice "big event" feel.

Scott

Gwen Habenicht · **Posted:** Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:49 pm

scottjohnson wrote:

Bernie Baake wrote:

So what this says is: If your not in the top ten in times or in pax, and if you aren't in contention for first place in your class, and your club hasn't made this a points event, then there really isn't any reason to enter this event unless you just want to burn up tires and spend your money. I really don't see how this will benefit the sport....What this does in fact is discourage people who may have had a chance to place in their class from comming. I believe its this mind set that keeps small clubs small. I KNOW THAT THIS FORMAT WILL NOT ENCOURAGE PARTICIPATION. (Faceitiously) Hell why don't we make the Club Cup win based on FTD that way only four cars have to show up, And the rest of us can find an autox or HPDE to drive in.

Thats just my opinion....But I'm stickin to it :soap:

Yup, you are right. Why autocross at all unless toy think you will win :roll:

I go because:

1) I like to autocross.
2) I like to hang out with all my autocross buddies that I don't see anywhere else.
3) I like to benchmark my performance against the best autocrossers in the state/region.

I see the NCAC as a mini-Nationals for those of us that don't go to nationals. The talent at the NCAC isn't as deep, but it's a nice "big event" feel.

Scott

Ok, so I agree with both of these statements. When I think of AutoX I’m not just thinking of the 4 plus or minus minutes of actual competition. I’m thinking about seeing all my AX friends. I’m thinking how much I enjoy everyone who stops by our tent for lunch or to talk. I’m looking forward to the dinners we usually have after each event. It’s kind of a package deal. For those 4 minutes I’m in the car I’m trying to get to the finish the quickest. At multi-club events I also enjoy the opportunity of facing different competitors and competing with different formats. That being said, for the NCAC Cup, I’d like to feel like my efforts aren’t only self serving, but are part of an effort to help win and/or keep the Cup in the club. The “team effort” concept of the Club Cup should be what the Cup is all about.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:22 pm

Under the 07 scoring the 06 Club Cup would have looked like this:

CCR 1753.545
THSCC 1760.215
Triad 1778.426

The new system has it merrits as does last years. If it makes folks happy, that makes me happy.

Stephen Westerfield · **Posted:** Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:09 pm

Bernie Baake wrote:

What this does in fact is discourage people who may have had a chance to place in their class from comming.

I guess I am missing something here. You stand a good chance at winning your class, but because you don't think you will be top ten pax or raw for the Cub Cup....you just won't show up? Why did folks ever show up for the NCAC before the Club Cup? If the possibility of winning your class at the state championship isn't motivation enough for you, why do you autocross at all?

Ryan Holton wrote:

The new system has it merrits as does last years. If it makes folks happy, that makes me happy.

Doesn't sound like you will ever be happy as folks are always going to complain.

MarcusMcRae · **Posted:** Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:28 pm

Yawn

Wes Eargle · **Joined:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:47 am **Posts:** 3683

Stephen Westerfield wrote:

Ryan Holton wrote:

The new system has it merrits as does last years. If it makes folks happy, that makes me happy.

Doesn't sound like you will ever be happy as folks are always going to complain.

Welcome to this year's episode of How The Cup Turns. If you're gonna bitch, don't bother showing up. We don't need the negative nancies bringing the rest of us down.

Gwen Habenicht · **Posted:** Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:19 pm

Stephen Westerfield wrote:

Bernie Baake wrote:

What this does in fact is discourage people who may have had a chance to place in their class from comming.

I guess I am missing something here. You stand a good chance at winning your class, but because you don't think you will be top ten pax or raw for the Cub Cup....you just won't show up? Why did folks ever show up for the NCAC before the Club Cup? If the possibility of winning your class at the state championship isn't motivation enough for you, why do you autocross at all?

Ryan Holton wrote:

The new system has it merrits as does last years. If it makes folks happy, that makes me happy.

Doesn't sound like you will ever be happy as folks are always going to complain.

Please don't misunderstand. We'll be there and we'll have a good time. We enjoy the competition and we'll try to win our classes. And, yes, wnning the class does mean something in the state championship. All I was saying was exactly what Malia said to you in the bus yesterday morning. I was just hoping to also be a part of going for the cup. As I said earlier, Bernie and I both enjoy autocrossing not only for the competition, but for the enjoyment of the people we have met in our club and other clubs.

Wes wrote:

If you're gonna bitch, don't bother showing up. We don't need the negative nancies bringing the rest of us down.

I really don't consider this bitching. More an honest difference of opinions. We elect officers to make these decissions and we'll abide by them. I'd like to think that over the past few years Bernie and I have tried to be good ambassadors for our club. At least that's been our goal. In truth, I think you know that about us. At least I hope so.

Bernie Baake · **Posted:** Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:40 pm

Wes Eargle wrote:

If you're gonna bitch, don't bother showing up. We don't need the negative nancies bringing the rest of us down.

If people are stating their opinions and you see it as bitching then you've probably done something wrong. I'm going to run in the NCAC regardless of what goes on here and regardless of what Wes says. If you disagree with what I've said, Great, you have the right to you're opinion as do I to mine. If your saying not to attend because I don't agree with you, and have the audacity to dare to voice my opinion, then Kiss My Ass.
I have good competition in this event and will enjoy seeing if I'm good enough to win.
last year I finished third and still felt like I contributed something to the winning of the Cup, and It felt good. This year I'm only in it for myself. So be it. But to me Now, the Cup means nothing, because I've been taken out of it by the rules change

WalterHouston · **Posted:** Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:15 pm

Like I tried to say, whatever keeps the other clubs participating is best. Stephen made the right decision as usual.

I'd like to see if we can do that and make the contributions of the top 3 in each class relevant to the cup competition.

I don't have to win anything to have fun autocrossing. Yesterday was as much fun as any autocross, maybe more because we got to run so much. Yes, getting a trophy in my class would be satisfying. I'd show up for NCAC no matter how the cup competition is structured. I'd just like to see us try to develop a system in the next year that would please all the clubs and get beyond the top 10 in pax and top 10 in raw times.

Scott - I'm sure a guy as smart as you are can figure out a way to keep one person from winning the cup for his club. I can, but didn't want to get that complicated. No car that is currently registered in CP will be in either top 10. You could be right. Our cars suck and we are all hacks.

Wes - I think you look for chances to criticize and call other people names. It gets old and doesn't help the club. The rest of us are trying to have a discussion about a controversial issue.

As soon as we set up the timing equipment, the competition begins. Nobody would run a NCAC without times and classes. Most of us autocross for many reasons and competition is just one of them.

Let's postpone the cup discussion for a month or so. Then, entertain creative ways to make all the classes relevant and the small club happy.

I intend to have a great time with all aspects of autocrossing next weekend.

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