Danville AutoX

Todd Breakey · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:09 pm

Emmie Fisher wrote:

Results are up!

Need dash plaque and course map files, please.

Damn Emmie, that was fast!!! I just sent those to you a few minutes ago!!!

I'm putting you in for a raise!!!!! :lol:

Todd Breakey · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:12 pm

JamesFeinberg wrote:

Todd Breakey wrote:

The only bit of dissappointment that I saw happened when Karen fuel starved the WRX in the sweeper.

When I first saw that, I immediately thought "Uh oh! WRX? Busted tranny!". Several of us near the bus started to head out there once we realized she wasn't moving but by that time, the other guys already had her headed back down the hill and the car was rolling pretty well. I think several Tarheel'ers were going to help but we just weren't quite as quick on the draw as the other guys who were watching her run closely.

Jim

That was my first thought also Jim. I thought that the car might have been touched by Hoppe or maybe Karl!!

I was glad to hear it was just a fuel issue.

And I'm glad to hear that someone did start to go help. I guess that we Tarheelers have to get in shape now!! We can't let those Triad guys beat us at running now, can we?!?!??!?!!?!? :lol:

Arthur McDonald · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:54 am **Posts:** 2052

Alarm bells always start going off in my head when someone walks up to me in the morning and says "you should be happy today, it's a horsepower course". There's always a catch, and it was that sweeper. I struggled. What WAS the RWD line through that thing? I could not find an entry line or speed that would let me avoid a frustrating push by mid-turn.

Also, I seemed to forget my Evo school lessons and repeatedly got behind in the Silicon Valley slalom. I kept hearing Rob Falkner yelling "you're barely looking as far forward as your windshield!". I'm pretty sure his was the voice in my head, since it was very annoying.

It sure was a fun course to run, though. Hats off to the designers!

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Arthur McDonald wrote:

What WAS the RWD line through that thing? I could not find an entry line or speed that would let me avoid a frustrating push by mid-turn.

Add rear spring until the car is undriveable. Learn to drive it. Go faster. Repeat.

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:45 am

Arthur McDonald wrote:

What WAS the RWD line through that thing? I could not find an entry line or speed that would let me avoid a frustrating push by mid-turn.

Look at my video -- not to see the right line but just to see another example of your complaint!

I needed to walk that corner a bunch more as there was more to it than first impressions of "look ahead, mark your track out constraint, drive it".

The E90 330i wanted to push like the devil everywhere but especially that turn. I found no quick solution other than giving up some entry speed, being very gentle rolling on the throttle, and using a lot of that track out room provided. I was afraid to do a fun run as I heard Tim Aro and Jr's voices in my head saying "tight is right", so I'd probably give up a bit more entry speed, hug the inside tighter, get on the gas a bit later and turn a faster time.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:09 am

JamesFeinberg wrote:

I did notice that you were the only CSP'er that was hitting the limiter before the finish but I have no idea where Ryan has his rev-limiter set on his megasquirt.

8,000 RPM :shock:

Clay Rouse has his set at 8k as well and both Clay and I were on the same tires (710's)

Wes, IIRC, is on the 225/45 Hoo-dawgs, which I think are a bit shorter than my 710's. EDIT: Wes's tires are .6" shorter than mine

My driving was less than stellar on Sunday. At most events I am either pushing it too hard at the wrong time or tip toeing thru the tulips at the wrong time. Sunday was mostly tip toeing on the runway. I am pretty frustrated because I can see what I am doing wrong after the fact but still cant turn it into results!

I think I need an autocross sabatical, followed by an EVO skool.

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:34 am

Arthur McDonald wrote:

What WAS the RWD line through that thing? I could not find an entry line or speed that would let me avoid a frustrating push by mid-turn.

Art, in my experience with nothing but rwd (including Mustangs) the key is an entry line and braking style that unweights the rear so that when you turn fairly hard/quickly at the tight part of the line the rear goes into slight oversteer that you can then modulate with the throttle and steering. Not "dirt tracking" but simply a "balance" thing. You also need a line that allows you to unwind the steering EARLY so that you straighten ASAP for the following straight. This eliminates push and reduces inside wheelspin. No loooong NASCAR constant radius turns. I found with any car with a tendency to mid corner push (stock Europa, Mustangs, FF) that "diamonding" the corner however much it takes to allow the rear to get light/loose is the key combined, with being able to get on the power early.

FYI I learned a lot about the need for getting the rear of a Mustang slightly loose at a Track Time event at Charlotte. The car (88 5.0) pushed in all the infield corners until I learned to drive in harder (without tire smoke, etc.) so that the car would transition to "slight" oversteer. Then I had fun and the front tires didn't wear out (as quickly).

Wes Eargle · **Joined:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:47 am **Posts:** 3683

Jim, on my best "feeling" run (which wasn't timed), I hit the limiter four times. Approaching the pivot for a couple of hits, out of the sweeper for a while, out of the slalom for a couple of hits towards the turnaround and all day long approaching the finish.

During the drive across town that morning, I smelled the sweet smell that is antifreeze and noticed a whisper of steam coming up from the driver's rear side of the hood. I thought that I had a little weep as I had been smelling it for a week or so and had just filled up the reservoir. After my first run, Ryan comes up and tells me that Chuck had noticed that I had left a puddle o' Prestone at the start line. Not cool. Fortunately, guys stepped up and used dirt to dry it up -- note to self, buy speedy dry for the bus. After the run, what was a weep became a drip, right onto the header. Evidently, at some time during it's life, the valve cover gasket dripped oil onto the heater hose going into the back of the engine which happened to cause failure right at that outlet. Long story short, we fixed it and learned in the process that they keep the Advance Auto at about 60 degrees.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:50 am

Wes Eargle wrote:

Long story short, we fixed it and learned in the process that they keep the Advance Auto at about 60 degrees.

60° below zero!

I was NOT complaining!

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:55 am

Art,

Thinking about the sweeper a bit more, I can't image the apex to track out line clearly in my mind. It seemed like there was a kink in there that, at least visually, created an easy trap to simply looking ahead and driving the proper line. Does that make sense to anyone? I find that when I mentally rehearse a course that sometimes I come to a blank spot in my mental picture, where the course is unclear...when I think back now, I can drive the who course from memory except the sweeper.

I definitely needed to walk that corner a bunch more times. In other words, it was an excellent course design in that it had elements, like this one, that were actually more challenging that they first appear.

Chuck

JamesFeinberg · **Posted:** Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:17 am

Ryan Holton wrote:

8,000 RPM Clay Rouse has his set at 8k as well and both Clay and I were on the same tires (710's)

Dayum! That is up there! :shock:

I finally got my ECU chipped and mine is set to 7600rpms. I have another chip set to 7800rpms but I'm a little worried about using it and running into valve float.

Wes, that's cool that it was something relatively minor. Right after gridding for the afternoon runs, a group of us smelled a *strong* scent of coolant and we were all popping our hoods and looking around for the culprit. The smell quickly dissipated but it makes think we must have smelled your car coming off course but couldn't locate the source.

Also Wes, much like Laurinburg, your lines out on course were spot-on through the section I was working. You were one of the very few cars that came around the sweeper at the top of the main runway right on top of the last cone which resulted in a perfect exit. As a result, your line entering and through the next funky slalom thing (I forget the name) was perfect as well and looked to be one of the very few cars that didn't get behind in that section. Great job man!

Jim

Chuck Frank · **Posted:** Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:31 am

I was very pleased to see the course when we walked it. Having installed the new shocks a couple days before it had most all the elements need to evaluate the settings. If I might be allowed to register a small complaint/observation, I would like to point out to course designers that an overly tight element right at the finish does not necessarily translate into a safer (slower) finish.
Witness the Huntsville tour this year where Saturday's course originally had a very similar finish element. The result there was some very spectacular spins and a lot of cone hits until finally a STS2 Miata ended up at the bottom of a 5' deep drainage ditch at least 200' off to the side of the course. Fortunately except for a few bent parts and a blown off the rim tire and a major hit to his dignity (and probably his underwear...) everything ended up OK. It could have been much worse but luck was with him and he missed a telephone pole and tree by a couple feet and the wet mud at the bottom kept him from going up the high steep bank on the other side which would certainly have rolled the car (which did not have a rollbar).
After that incident the cones were moved to create a much less radical maneuver, the result being a far safer finish because the cars were not out of shape and were able to stop quicker while under control.
The bus Sunday was much closer to the finish than was that drainage ditch at Huntsville... :shock:

JamesFeinberg · **Posted:** Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:01 am

I didn't think there was anything wrong with the finish at Danville. I wasn't a big fan when I first walked it but it turned out to be just fine.

The finish in Huntsville was a little more hairy but you are leaving out a few key details. Firstly, the STS2 Miata incident was mostly caused by a worker who put a cone out of place from a previous hit. 3 cars came through the finish after the misplaced cone and they were traveling at least 10mph (if not more) faster than they would have been had the cone been in its proper place.

The first person through there was Andy Hollis and he immediately parked his car next to the timing trailer to get the situation fixed. Just as he was stepping into the trailer, the 3rd Miata came screaming through there and got out of shape. It surprised the driver (I talked to him at length about it the next day) and he just couldn't get the car under control. Granted, it could have happened even with the course set up properly but it wouldn't have been nearly as bad and the driver wouldn't have been as caught out by the extra speed that the finish wasn't designed for.

The other issue plaguing the finish there was a big strip of new asphalt that was laid down over some new drain lines. Many people were commenting on it during course walks and it was an issue for RWD and/or stiffly sprung cars. That strip wasn't there when the course was originally designed and they probably should have changed it but it just didn't happen in time. FWD and softer cars really weren't upset by the strip as accelerating over that section just caused a slight push.

Those extra details make a big difference in the "story" and should not be overlooked IMO.

Jim

MartynWheeler · **Joined:** Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:30 pm **Posts:** 303

Loved the course, loved the event. Great fun. Simple, clean, room for line choice.

First run was a bit slow because I was expecting less traction, and the car was sticking (relatively) well. Put a good run together the second time. With a good run in the bag, went into the afternoon and deliberately over-drive the turn-arounds to make sure I didn't have my braking point too soon (I didn't), and also pushed some other sections a hair too much to show myself how far I could take it. Fourth run went well until I carried a bit too much speed into the last section and nailed a cone. Fifth run good again. I'm really pleased with how I did. PAXing 80th on these tyres was a good result, and I'm very happy with it.

For the sweeper, I had (relatively) no trouble with abnormal understeer. Like Dick said above, I diamonded it, getting most of the turning done early with the rear unloaded and giving up entry speed for a clean full throttle unwinding exit rather than scrubbing off acceleration by pushing the front.

David Spratte · **Posted:** Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:28 pm

Great course guys. Hats off to the course designers: I enjoyed the hell out of it.

Thanks to Wes and Chris Brown for helping me out with my late arrival and to Art for being a novice coordinator.

I think my 710s are now diminished to school tire status. So I'll be trying some A6 Hoosiers for the Commonwealth Games and NCAC. We'll see if I like 'em.

Oh. And damn you and your outsiders Feinberg!

I remember last year I would have been happy with a PAX like this.

I've got pics, I'll try and get them edited and posted this week. I might need to talk about my fellow X class competitors and see if I can run a different heat to make it easier to shoot the heats I run in. As it is, I worry that Stock and X classes are getting less coverage.

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