BFG R1 tire story

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Chuck - any comments on longevity of the BFG R1's? I'm shopping for tires now, and if the R1s stay grippy past 50+ runs I'm tempted to try a set.

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:31 am

MikeWhitney wrote:

Chuck - any comments on longevity of the BFG R1's? I'm shopping for tires now, and if the R1s stay grippy past 50+ runs I'm tempted to try a set.

Well, they have about 25 runs on them so far, and of course they are wearing vastly better than the A6. From the latest GRM test of these, they were much closer to the A6 in performance than I would have thought (closer to A6 in performance than the R6, extrapolating across the two tests GRM has done on the R1 recently) -- so close that these make much more sense for club autocrossing imo. The V710 won, but it was in a different size with a smaller diameter, and they commented on how the car was really leaping off the corners with the lower gearing...so much for a "comparison" test.

I think they will definitely stay grippy past 50 runs as they are more of a track designed tire. The main problem I have with them is that are MUCH wider than their specified width (at least these 265s are). I am having major inside rear tire well rub on the 330 while still having some outside edge rub as well, enough so that I called BFG and they said the only thing they could do was swap me for a new set of 245/40-18s (which are probably 255 to 260 wide :lol:

). I'm pondering that path this week actually.

If you're up at Danville in a couple of weeks, and we have fun runs, you're welcome to drive the car. Jackie is going to be home that weekend, so we'll be co-driving it at the 2-day event.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Thanks for the info Chuck. Do you (or anyone out there) know anyone who has put more than 50 hard autocross runs on R1s?

I'm not worried about clearance, I have already rolled the heck out of the fenders and I'll be using 255-40-17 for now. Should be plenty of roon.

I'm only considering Victoracer V700s and BFG R1s right now for autocross tires. I'm sick and tired of V710s turing into bricks at 40 runs and cording spectacularly at 50 runs. I've been delaminating big sections or rubber on rear v710s, right in the center -- so I think I'm pretty punishing on tires and could probably get away with a more track-tire for autocross.

Plus, GRM's great times on lap 1 with the R1s in the test tell me they don't need _too_ much heat.

Then again I can get victo's for $50 cheaper per tire. I can live with a performance hit for $200. I have used up a lot of sets of Victo's in the past on my E30, and I always got 100-120 runs out of them before they corded. They always performed great for me up to about 80 runs.

These days, consistency and longevity trump ultimate performance for me.

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:55 am

I don't know of anyone who has done more autox runs than I have on R1s. You can try these on your car for fun runs if you want. The front wheels are 8" wide with 40mm offset, and the rear wheels are 8.5" wide with 44mm offset. This would have to be on Saturday though due to time constraints. The tire measures about 272 wide on the 8" wheel and about 277-8mm wide on the 8.5" wheel, and they are "section width wide" essentially almost all the way out to the tread face.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

I don't know of anyone who has done more autox runs than I have on R1s. You can try these on your car for fun runs if you want. The front wheels are 8" wide with 40mm offset, and the rear wheels are 8.5" wide with 44mm offset. This would have to be on Saturday though due to time constraints. The tire measures about 272 wide on the 8" wheel and about 277-8mm wide on the 8.5" wheel, and they are "section width wide" essentially almost all the way out to the tread face.

Hey, what are you using to get such an accurate width measurement? Some super-size caliper or something? Or are you measuring a stack w/ a tape measure and dividing by four?

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:42 pm

MikeWhitney wrote:

Hey, what are you using to get such an accurate width measurement? Some super-size caliper or something? Or are you measuring a stack w/ a tape measure and dividing by four?

Well, you know how you did those experiments in college where you quoted accuracy to more than the number of significant digits and got burned? :lol:

My "accurate" method was just laying the tire on its side and using a flat edge across the top to measure from the ground up to the edge. I even measured in 1/16ths and converted to metric. :roll:

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:22 pm

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

Well, you know how you did those experiments in college where you quoted accuracy to more than the number of significant digits and got burned? :lol:

10 divided by 3 equals 3
10.0 divided by 3 equals 3
10.0 divided by 3.0 equals 3.3
etc.
Engineering 101 circa 1964 at Univ of Washington.
:lol:

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:23 pm

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

My "accurate" method was just laying the tire on its side and using a flat edge across the top to measure from the ground up to the edge. I even measured in 1/16ths and converted to metric. :roll:

Did that include the thickness of any raised letters/numbers on the straight edge side (obviously the floor side did)???

:wink:

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:26 pm

DickRasmussen wrote:

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

My "accurate" method was just laying the tire on its side and using a flat edge across the top to measure from the ground up to the edge. I even measured in 1/16ths and converted to metric. :roll:

Did that include the thickness of any raised letters/numbers on the straight edge side (obviously the floor side did)???

:wink:

Yep, exactly. Of course that stuff rubs first too. Interesting you should mention such...I wonder what the "standard" is for measuring section width for a tire. Is there an SAE standard for section width measurement?

George Bright · **Posted:** Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:16 pm

DickRasmussen wrote:

10 divided by 3 equals 3
10.0 divided by 3 equals 3
10.0 divided by 3.0 equals 3.3
etc.
Engineering 101 circa 1964 at Univ of Washington.
:lol:

Dick did you get out your slide rule for that?

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:24 pm

George Bright wrote:

DickRasmussen wrote:

10 divided by 3 equals 3
10.0 divided by 3 equals 3
10.0 divided by 3.0 equals 3.3
etc.
Engineering 101 circa 1964 at Univ of Washington.
:lol:

Dick did you get out your slide rule for that?

No. I do that one from memory. I use the slide rule mostly for "rpm vs. speed" comparisons after using a calculator to find the rpm at 60 mph. :wink:

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:33 pm

Well, the saga continues.

I had such extreme rubbing in the rear (both inside and outside) where I had none with true 265 width R-comps in the past that I decided to call BFG (i.e. Michelin) about the issue. After some discussion, they offered to swap out the whole set, assuming they weren't worn much, for a smaller size.

Jason at Discount Tire in Wake Forest handled the claim with BFG/Michelin for me. I've had nothing but outstanding and professional service from Discount Tire in Wake Forest. They've mounted R-comps (Dunlops, Hoosiers, and BFG R1s on the 330i and NT-01s on the M5) for me on numerous occasions this year with excellent results (i.e. no wheel damage at all, and these SSR and especially M5 OEM rear wheels are very expensive).

The only close size to switch to was 245/40-18. This tire is larger in diameter than the 265 (about a 1.5% gearing change, no biggie), so my only concern was fender liner interference up front when the wheels are turned. It is really close (about 5mm), but so far after test driving on them last night on the Wake County scrub-in site, there's no evidence of rubbing.

Of course these tires are also a lot wider than 245s. Laid next to the 255/35 BFG KDW2 street tires, they look like this:

So these are also pretty wide for their "size" -- probably between 255 and 260mm. At least I have no rubbing now, and they feel better than the 265s, more responsive to steering inputs, etc. We'll see how these work this weekend.

Thanks to Jason at Discount Tire in Wake Forest for outstanding service, and thanks to BFG/Michelin for excellent customer support!

Chuck

Matt McGrain · **Posted:** Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:28 pm

Keith Vail wrote:

Aaron Buckley wrote:

Unfortunately, as Bryan learned at the Finger Lakes ProSolo, the Hoosiers on the front a Crossfire are never going to work. After 3 runs, they were already getting the bevelled edge that will turn to cord in 12-15 runs. He switched to the Kumhos up front and will sell his as well. On a well cambered car, they're awesome. - AB

I will agree with Aaron on this one. The Kuhmos I have now have the previously stated almost 30 runs and they look great. My Hoosiers were already corded by this point.

Not to go off on too much of a tangent at this point, but is it all that common for Hoosiers to cord that quick? Speaking from experience on a camber-challenged ITR, my A4's lasted about thirty-five runs or so. I got them flipped the event before they corded and was pretty surpised at the lack of longevity. This really makes the old cost-per-run consideration depressing; and I'm only running 15's. :cry:

I've had my V710's almost two seasons and they are yet to die in contrast. I haven't really had that much experience racing on R-comps but I would say that the Kumho have the same level of grip as the pricier Hoosiers when the A4's were in production.

To end on a good note, perhaps this weekend will do the trick (kill the 710's giving me an excuse to buy new ones and keep the R) considering how many runs we'll probably end up with based on the lower than normal entry.

Chuck- that interesting information about the fitment issues, I hope it works out with the new size set in Danville. That sounds like great service that they provide.

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:41 pm

Matt McGrain wrote:

Not to go off on too much of a tangent at this point, but is it all that common for Hoosiers to cord that quick? Speaking from experience on a camber-challenged ITR, my A4's lasted about thirty-five runs or so. I got them flipped the event before they corded and was pretty surpised at the lack of longevity. This really makes the old cost-per-run consideration depressing; and I'm only running 15's. :cry:

I've had my V710's almost two seasons and they are yet to die in contrast. I haven't really had that much experience racing on R-comps but I would say that the Kumho have the same level of grip as the pricier Hoosiers when the A4's were in production.

To end on a good note, perhaps this weekend will do the trick (kill the 710's giving me an excuse to buy new ones and keep the R) considering how many runs we'll probably end up with based on the lower than normal entry.

You need -2 degrees of camber or more up front to get Hoosiers to really last. Kumhos in comparison will run for 100+ runs on a camber challenged car... and that is if you can cord them. Most will heat cycle out by about 80 runs or so and turn into junk, but by that point, I feel the tire was worth it.

Likely Matt your tires are heat cycled out and you'd be amazed at how much better a new set would be. One thing I can say for the Hoosiers are that they are fast right to the cord, but so would the Kumho if they lasted for so little runs

That being said, at Nationals '07, about 90% of the winners were on Hoosiers, as compared to about an even split in '06. - AB

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:56 pm

Much as I'd love to try the Kumho, they don't make the right front size for an AP2 S2000. I'll start tearing fender liners out of the car if I go to a 245-45-17 Kumho (from a 245-40-17 Hoosier).

The BFGs would be very fractionally cheaper than A6s. I'm a little put off by them being more of a road race oriented tire than an autocross tire - at least from what I gleaned from the latest issues of Grassroots Motorsports. I'll be watching with great interest on Saturday Chuck...

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